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ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

A very good posting Oracio, and many more good posts in following. It was a pleasure to read them. Thanks!


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Arthur Biele

 2012/6/26 11:54Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

ArtB, thanks for the comment.

Blayne, thanks for sharing that post. I found it to be very interesting. Overall I do not have many problems with it. But here are a few concerns:

You wrote, "I'm in absolute agreement with your comment saying, "It is a clever deception that anyone can be completely sinless in this life".

But then you also wrote, "It will not do for us to say that perfection is unattainable in this life, for the bible says otherwise. The Lord simply commands us to be perfect, and when He commands, He also gives the power to achieve. Moreover, if we have experienced perfect deliverance from one sin, there is no logical reason why we could or should not go all the way."

Maybe there is a play on semantics here. By "perfection" do you mean "sinlessness" or something else? Because that is what I have been meaning all along.

You wrote, "We must not leave this position or trade it in for the run of the mill Christian view that 'in this life we'll never be perfect'. This is just as unbiblical, or even more so, as telling myself and others that I am already perfect."

So which is it Blayne? Is it possible for a Christian to be perfectly sinless in this life or not?

Another concern with your article and others like it is that it can give Christians the impression that sin is not really an issue to deal with rigorously in their life. Such articles on sanctification seem to leave out the daily battle with sin every Christian experiences. But the Bible is full of exhortations to Christians to be watchful regarding all sorts of sins of the body and mind.


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Oracio

 2012/6/26 14:38Profile
Blayne
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Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! Oracio

I can only blame the contradictions which you correctly noticed on my OLD-Zymers.
I'm also tempted to throw in the pun of "no one is perfect!" . :)

Anyways, what I was hoping to explain was that it would perhaps be better if we were to use the term "spiritual maturity" instead of "perfection". At least maybe the idea would become less offensive to people.

Just minutes ago I posted some comments to a Thread which might better explain what I've been thinking with regards to "perfection". http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30222&forum=36&45

Oracio, the very last thing I would want to be doing is to (as you say) "give Christians the impression that sin is not really an issue to deal with ... ", and/or, "Leave out the daily battle with sin".


============================
by Oracio on 2012/6/26 11:38:51

ArtB, thanks for the comment.

Blayne, thanks for sharing that post. I found it to be very interesting. Overall I do not have many problems with it. But here are a few concerns:

You wrote, "I'm in absolute agreement with your comment saying, "It is a clever deception that anyone can be completely sinless in this life".

But then you also wrote, "It will not do for us to say that perfection is unattainable in this life, for the bible says otherwise. The Lord simply commands us to be perfect, and when He commands, He also gives the power to achieve. Moreover, if we have experienced perfect deliverance from one sin, there is no logical reason why we could or should not go all the way."

Maybe there is a play on semantics here. By "perfection" do you mean "sinlessness" or something else? Because that is what I have been meaning all along.

You wrote, "We must not leave this position or trade it in for the run of the mill Christian view that 'in this life we'll never be perfect'. This is just as unbiblical, or even more so, as telling myself and others that I am already perfect."

So which is it Blayne? Is it possible for a Christian to be perfectly sinless in this life or not?

Another concern with your article and others like it is that it can give Christians the impression that sin is not really an issue to deal with rigorously in their life. Such articles on sanctification seem to leave out the daily battle with sin every Christian experiences. But the Bible is full of exhortations to Christians to be watchful regarding all sorts of sins of the body and mind.

============================

 2012/6/26 15:27Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Blayne, I appreciate your humility. I agree that the term "spiritual maturity" would be much less offensive to many than "perfection". By perfection many mean sinless perfection and that to me is a dangerous heresy. I believe I have good grounds for considering that teaching a serious heresy over which there can be no genuine Christian fellowship. I have seen first hand(not just online) how destructive it is and how it can ruin a fellowship.


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Oracio

 2012/6/27 9:13Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

Blayne, I appreciate your humility. I agree that the term "spiritual maturity" would be much less offensive to many than "perfection". By perfection many mean sinless perfection and that to me is a dangerous heresy. I believe I have good grounds for considering that teaching a serious heresy over which there can be no genuine Christian fellowship. I have seen first hand(not just online) how destructive it is and how it can ruin a fellowship.



I am not posting this to argue with you but to know your view on these scriptural truths.
I agree that you might have seen many destructive things in people who believe in sinless perfection. But that does not make God's promise heresy. For example there are many who commit crimes and live a shameless life but believe in Eternal security. So does this mean eternal security is wrong? No not at all. Irrespective of what these men believe, God's promise is always true. My soul is eternally secured in Jesus as long as I abide in him and follow him.

Now regarding Sinless perfection, was Jesus sinless prefect? I believe you will say YES for this, then is the bible not asking us to walk in the ways of Jesus and live like how we lived? This is the point of 1 John 2, that we Christians should live like Jesus, if we say we believe in him.

What helped Jesus to live a sinless perfect life? Holy Spirit who lived in him. This is the same Holy Spirit, whom God has given to us Christians, if Jesus was able to live that life, why should I believe I cannot live this life, when I am equipped with same Holy Spirit? If I believe it is impossible then I am a liar and an unbeliever in God's power.

To be fully Christlike is a journey that will not be accomplished in one day or two. But it has to be taken by all with a hope that we will reach the destination. If we do not have this hope then our life will be stand still and we will never progress. This is what happened to many Christians today.

I hope these truths will encourage you rather than bringing you down.


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Sreeram

 2012/6/27 9:52Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re: Being Perfect

Greetings Blayne

You wrote: "When in Matthew 5:48 Jesus says, "You are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect", this is a promise as well as a command."

Context, context, context.

Was Jesus speaking to Christians when He said that?

Answer: NO

Was Jesus teaching the New Covenant (i.e. New Contract)?

Answer: No. Jesus and His fellow Jews were under Mosaic Covenant (Covenant = Contract). There was no new Covenant when Jesus spoke these words. The two are mutually exclusive, though both are from God, and, both can not exist at the same time.

Now Blayne, what follows is not about your post. But to everyone who is a Christian, to avoid confusing the Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant. The two are mutually exclusive. And Jesus never taught the New Covenant prior to His death on the cross and ressurection. To do so would be a sin, and that would have disqualify Jesus from being our unblemished Lamb, who died on the cross in our place, that we may be saved by the covering of the blood of Jesus, our paschal Lamb.

Upon His ressurrection, Jesus did a lot of Teaching of the New Covenant to His disciples, and He instructed them to carry out the 'Good News' of the New Covenant throughout the world. The Mosaic Covenat had been annhilated by God the father upon Jesus death. Zec 11: 7-13.

I have seen too many Christian preachers and commentators mix The Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. They are not compatible. they have a diferent set of Laws.

By the Mosaic Covenant, you are saved by keeping all of the 613 commandments. of course, some apply just to men, some to women, to the priesthood, some to the Land, others to the Temple, to strangers, to what to wear, etc.. About 340 apply to all Jews.

As Paul wrote in Hebrews:

Hebrews 7:11 "Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also."

13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,


“ You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former [Mosaic] commandment because of its weakness and uselessness, for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath."

The Mosaic Covenant with all its 613 laws has been annihilated. To everyone, do any of you know what Laws we are told to keep under our Christian Contract with God via the New Covenant?




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Arthur Biele

 2012/6/27 11:12Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

by Oracio on 2012/6/27 6:13:35

"Blayne I appreciate your humility. I agree that the term "spiritual maturity" would be much less offensive to many than "perfection". By perfection many mean sinless perfection and that to me is a dangerous heresy. I believe I have good grounds for considering that teaching a serious heresy over which there can be no genuine Christian fellowship. I have seen first hand (not just online) how destructive it is and how it can ruin a fellowship."

Nice post Oracio. God calls us just as we are.


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Arthur Biele

 2012/6/27 11:19Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Now regarding Sinless perfection, was Jesus sinless prefect? I believe you will say YES for this, then is the bible not asking us to walk in the ways of Jesus and live like how we lived? This is the point of 1 John 2, that we Christians should live like Jesus, if we say we believe in him.
What helped Jesus to live a sinless perfect life? Holy Spirit who lived in him. This is the same Holy Spirit, whom God has given to us Christians, if Jesus was able to live that life, why should I believe I cannot live this life, when I am equipped with same Holy Spirit? If I believe it is impossible then I am a liar and an unbeliever in God's power.
To be fully Christlike is a journey that will not be accomplished in one day or two. But it has to be taken by all with a hope that we will reach the destination. If we do not have this hope then our life will be stand still and we will never progress. This is what happened to many Christians today.(Sree)



Sree, did you read the opening post? If so, maybe you forgot what I wrote regarding our Lord's sinless life on this earth. If you did not read the OP, I would really encourage you to check it out.

Jesus is our highest standard and example to follow. His image is the goal for us to press on to reach. We are not saying that we shouldn't strive to be Christlike through the power of the Holy Spirit. We will grow more and more into His likeness. That is crystal clear in Scripture.

What we are saying is that we will not reach perfect Christlikeness until we reach glory and receive our new bodies. This mindset does not cause us to be at a standstill but helps us humbly acknowledge our weaknesses in this body, it helps be realistic with God, His Word, ourselves and others. That is what God requires of us, that we be not deceived or deceive others with false notions or teachings.


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Oracio

 2012/6/27 12:36Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

What we are saying is that we will not reach perfect Christlikeness until we reach glory and receive our new bodies.


I believe Jesus lived a sinless life in likeness of my flesh and he was tempted in all ways like me. Now that I am bornagain through the Holy Spirit, I can live the same life now on this earth. Though our belief is different here the problem is not here. I think we both are perfectly fine with our understandings. This I am saying according to the light given to me as of now.

I see the problem in the below quote of you only.

Quote:

This mindset does not cause us to be at a standstill but helps us humbly acknowledge our weaknesses in this body, it helps be realistic with God, His Word, ourselves and others. That is what God requires of us, that we be not deceived or deceive others with false notions or teachings.



I am happy that you believe in acknowledging our weakness and also in following Christ. There are many who do not believe in it. Though what you are saying is truth, it is not complete according to Gospel.

You are missing the vital step that we need after acknowledging out weakness. Things don't just stop here. All the stumble and fall that we have in our Christian life is because we trusted in our strength rather than his strength. Hence we are convicted of our fall, we need to repent and acknowledge our lack of Strength. I am sure you are fine till here.

But the next thing is to ask his Strength and continue fighting the battle with his strength to be an overcomer. You missed this vital point totally. This is what Paul preached when he said, 'when I am weak, I am strong' and 'God's strength is perfected in my weakness'. Paul did not preach that we are all weak and we will continue falling but he preached that when we are weak we will be strengthened by God. This is hope and this is complete Gospel, that is by Strength of God I can live without stumbling.

Paul was able to live this life and that is why he was able to say to Corinthians that his conscience is absolutely clear before God. He still did not judge himself righteous, because it is not our conscience that judges us but God. If Paul was stumbling like us then how can he say that his Conscience was absolutely clear before God? So if Paul is able to live like that why not you and I?

Also if Paul was stumbling all the time on his walk with Christ then how can he ask other believers to Follow His as He follows Christ?

1 Corinthians 4-For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.


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Sreeram

 2012/6/27 13:53Profile
Blayne
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Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! Sree

THANK YOU for sharing these thoughts with us.
To be honest, there are occasions when I'm tempted with the idea that it's a total waste to participate in this Forum. It often is difficult to get myself past the confusion and pious ranting of some.
But it's comments like yours here that I find so very encouraging for my own Christian journey.
Yesterday, I met a Christian man who also shares the similar thoughts as your own. I was so very much gratified and encouraged. The Lord Jesus continues to speak to His faithful in this very day and hour. Mighty things are being done in the hearts and minds of God's people.
Thank you again for your insight and also for your courage to speak about things that so many are all too eager to dismiss and piously reject.

================================
Re:
by Sree on 2012/6/27 10:53:53

Paul was able to live this life and that is why he was able to say to Corinthians that his conscience is absolutely clear before God. He still did not judge himself righteous, because it is not our conscience that judges us but God. If Paul was stumbling like us then how can he say that his Conscience was absolutely clear before God? So if Paul is able to live like that why not you and I?
Also if Paul was stumbling all the time on his walk with Christ then how can he ask other believers to Follow His as He follows Christ?
1 Corinthians 4-For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
================================

 2012/6/27 15:02Profile





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