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 Re:

I'm guessing these fella's had a pretty firm grasp on the deep things.

Man when it comes to this topic you gotta give the enemy his props. He played this one perfectly.

A debate between the head and the heart is a no win.

Marc mc

 2012/6/29 6:49









 Re:

And why do these threads keep cropping up when the administrator has asked we not initiate these discussions.? Are there not other things in God's kingdom we can speak on to build up the body of Christ?

Breaux Bear.

 2012/6/29 8:35









 Re:

This debate has raged for years because it is so vital.

The more friction and fire the more relevance. The enemy knows the key this has on the churches position in the earth very well. It's an historical fact.



Marc mc

 2012/6/29 8:52









 Re:

And brother no one has won this debate. Godly brethren on both sides have debated CalArm and it causes division and does not build up. You are right. The devil knows this. And he will divide the church over it.

I see in places like China and Iran, believers are more concerned about following Jesus and reaching the lost. They suffer persecution for it. They do not ,as we, have the luxury of debating doctrine. They simply live it. When will the church in America wake up and realize there are far more serious things to be concerned about then who is right in the CalArm debate?

Bearmaster.

 2012/6/29 9:06
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTYE:
______________________________________________________________

Wow... there is a lot of spiritual arrogance on this thread.
______________________________________________________________

Aw, Krispy, looks like you have not had your morning coffee yet...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/6/29 10:09Profile









 Re:

by bearmaster on 2012/6/29 6:06:24

And brother no one has won this debate. Godly brethren on both sides have debated CalArm and it causes division and does not build up. You are right. The devil knows this. And he will divide the church over it.

I see in places like China and Iran, believers are more concerned about following Jesus and reaching the lost. They suffer persecution for it. They do not ,as we, have the luxury of debating doctrine. They simply live it. When will the church in America wake up and realize there are far more serious things to be concerned about then who is right in the CalArm debate?

Bearmaster.


Here's a thought, forget the debate for a second and consider this.

If the reform position is correct then it's totally correct. If its wrong then it's the greatest heresy in church history. In other words, this debate is not an apples or oranges debate. It's apples or poison.

In any other field or area a point of difference as large as the CalArm cannot exist. The scale this difference involves is total, if one is right the other is absolutely wrong and if wrong then most of what follows is wrong as well.

I'm not debating this issue, I am just trying to point out that it must be the intention of every follower of Christ to study to show themselves approved. That's why I said its a vital area and the simple fact that these positions are so different and yet still able to cause so much devision for so many years is proof that one is right and one is wrong. One must be light and the other darkness.


Marc mc

 2012/6/29 10:48
David01-72
Member



Joined: 2012/3/23
Posts: 58
Texas

 Re:

Here we go again, God help us! These cav/arm debates only brings the fruit of hate toward each other. I say,anything to do with these debate shall be locked.


_________________
David Cisneros

 2012/6/29 11:08Profile
jimur
Member



Joined: 2012/6/26
Posts: 88


 Re: Why are Reformed/Calvinist Preachers.......

Being new to this forum but having read many posts I find often a vague personal distinction of topics considered acceptable discussion and that which is not. Forgive me if I offend or cross that line.

I have yet to be given light in understanding how one might engage study of holy scripture in avoidance of theological idea and thesis. Neither do I fully understand allowance of some of these ideas, yet not others. These men were used of God and true blessings to man. Had Godly men of history been disallowed to present these ideas, would it not constitute a form of suppression of those who seek a deeper knowledge of biblical truth and understanding which to offer further glory to the Father by those who come after? Do we glorify our Lord with inspired scripture alone and seek not a deeper understanding? Both Cal/Arm give glory though different perspectives.

I understand context of verse and subject, but can we not apply

Malachi 2:2 (KJV)
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

and couple with

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Surely we can not disregard

Romans 10:14 (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Again, were not these men teachers, preachers, and blessings? If so are their ideas to be banned and censored? Are my thoughts and references such as a gross misapplication of scripture and biblical teaching?
I am but a sinner saved by grace with no title preceding my name nor credentials following. Yet I continue to seek all possible understanding of my creator. How might I divide without I hear?
I suggest the fault is not in these thesis, but in the seemingly inseparable emotions of a weakened [unnatural state] of man.

Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting, grant us an open mind, ready to receive the truth and act upon it. Show us that others have a right to their own opinions and help us to see their point of view. Give us each the grace to know we may be mistaken. Help us Lord to not shut our mind to facts simply because we do not like them. Grant we give the same weight to those who may be unpleasant as to those who are pleasant because they are in our favor. Open the eyes and understanding of our soul that we may rightly divide truth for Jesus' sake. Amen

 2012/6/29 11:40Profile









 Re:

Well I guess some can shut themselves off and hate but that's not me.

I'm new around here and probably will spend little time at this. But I'm curious if any who have debated this subject at length have considered what's at stake for themselves and have ever used logic to consider that our Father God would never have left His children with such a complex question unanswered.

Surely our Father who speaks so often about avoiding divisions is not the author of this one. And if it is such a point of contention in the Body for so many years then it clearly must be an issue of good and evil. It should therefore be one of the highest priorities of believers to find out for themselves the Will of God in this area.

I guess what I'm saying is this is a black or white issue and that's why it can't be settled in debate. The repercussions are IME total

Marc mc

 2012/6/29 11:41









 When hateful dissent is hidden in the smiles of religion, and dogma emerges.

"I have yet to be given light in understanding how one might engage study of holy scripture in avoidance of theological idea and thesis. Neither do I fully understand allowance of some of these ideas, yet not others.. Jimur"

I just posted this on another thread, but it seems taylor made for your question.
...................................................
The nature of Dogma..the Cal/Arm war.
....................................................
"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization.

" It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers."

Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted without evidence, they can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, or issued decisions of political authorities."...wiki

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom, ruled by a Spirit; the Holy Spirit Jahweh. "God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."

"The term "dogmatic theology" became more widely used following the Protestant Reformation and was used to designate the articles of faith that the Church had officially formulated."...wiki

" These creeds or dogmas that came out of the church councils were considered to be authoritative and binding on all Christians because the church officially affirmed them.

One of the purposes of dogmatic theology is so that a church body can formulate and communicate the doctrine that is considered essential to Christianity and which if denied would constitute heresy."...wiki

So, here we see that the individual faith was and is transferred to the organization, and somewhere along the line, heavy personalities developed their own theology, and proclaimed it as Divine, and then, anyone who defied this would be constituted a Heretic.

This is so completely ingrained within the religious psyche of it's followers, often it cannot be challenged, it has become AS the Spirit and the Word of God. It exists today, in many agendas.


Wiki states:
"Ever since Arminius and his followers revolted against Calvinism in the early 17th century, Protestant soteriology has been largely divided between Calvinism and Arminianism.
The extreme of Calvinism is hyper-Calvinism, which insists that signs of election must be sought before evangelization of the unregenerate takes place and that the eternally damned have no obligation to repent and believe,

... and on the extreme of Arminianism is Pelagianism, which rejects the doctrine of original sin on grounds of moral accountability; but the overwhelming majority of Protestant, evangelical pastors and theologians hold to one of these two systems or somewhere in between."wiki

And, we hate everything that opposes our brand for after all, "IS IT NOT HERESY?"

We must hate and reject everything that opposes our dogma, for after all, is it not Heresy? Thus, the rigid confines of our religious icons and TEACHERS BECOMES, AND MUST BECOME OURS! and many our most do not even understand why they feel the way they do....THREATENED....as if their entire faith is being attacked, and must be defended at all costs.

The Word of God in itself is no longer relevant, but only if "interpreted" properly. The intertwining of the thinking into this dogma now becomes ones faith; the tentacles of a systematic theology by a mind heavier than yours defines how you must think, or die trying in it's extremes........

"John Calvin said the same thing of Michael Servetus, a man that dared to disagree with his cherished doctrinal formulations. Seven years before Calvin actually saw to it that Servetus was put to death, he said: “If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”

Calvin made good on his threat. Why? Because he had no answers to Michael Servetus’ correction of his false doctrines, and he could not bear to be proven wrong and to lose face. The temporal power he had taken to himself was predicated on being right. He was a very proud man; God resists the proud.
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/johncalvin.htm

Both are simply the ideas of brilliant leaders, as prone to error and sin as you or me. When we adapt them, in limitations as only the Word and solely the word, we then must hate everything we perceive that opposes it. The Pharisees hated Jesus as they weaved their own Right and agreed in the own Justice; "THE TRADITIONS".

CAL/ARM is no more than that; each contains slivers of truth, but without the Spirit endorsing the Word with Love and Power, the letter becomes death.


...Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”...
So, they murdered Him.

I'm not speaking for the moderators, but I have an idea that this is why there are limits in addressing this issue; the most dogmatic, and hateful war existing in Protestantism yet today.







 2012/6/29 15:30





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