I find that many here are aware of How babylonic the Catholic Church is. But is that system limited to the walls of the Catholic Church?
As I ponder church history and modern problems in the Church. It seems Clear that once a group becomes organized or institutionalized they often times create a tower or a pyramid in which they exalt some above measure, The danger I see is twofold on the one hand often times the leaders,treatise,doctrines etc. take the place of God in the conscience of its followers. Hence, Often times in the course of minutes of talking with someone you can detect there exact Church or religius affiliation.
They would argue there doctrines with God if so be(as did the Jews with Jesus)
The other problem is that the tower much like a business pyramid places Men in a place that it is very difficult not to be exalted above measure and Open for the attacks of the enemy.(and if the enemy can lead that leader into error the followers will naturaly follow)
whats your thoughts ??
| 2012/6/23 10:15||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: babylon|
As I ponder church history and modern problems in the Church. It seems Clear that once a group becomes organized or institutionalized they often times create a tower or a pyramid in which they exalt some above measure,
I full disagree that once a person is in leadership in the church and esteemed in the Lord that this is bablyonic. Also when the church is organized and brothers and sisters in each locality are setup to oversee and ensure of the health of the churches.
This started with Paul the Apostle who overseed many churches not in a legalistic way but in a loving authoritative way. Also the apostle Peter clearly in 1 Peter 5 gives guidelines for sheparding the flock of God in which Jesus Christ is the head.
Yet there were heads of church areas such as James in Jersulam. This is not babylon by any means.
Some movements where there is one who is over the entire movement of churches yet in the hearts of the people they esteem Jesus Christ as the true head, there is more liberty in the Spirit in these churches then in home churches or places where they are 100% supposedly independent but really do not practically in their hearts understand that Jesus Christ it is the true head of the Church.
Of course the Catholic church after 300AD very quickly became more and more earth-bound setting up a kingdom of the earth instead of representing the kingdom of heaven. There have been true believers in that system since that time and even in the present though very few there are believers in it still.
God's ways are beyond our ways.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2012/6/23 11:23||Profile|
| Re: babylon|
In Revelation it talks about the Catholic Church, I believe, as the great harlot, but it always gets left out what it says right after that: "& her daughters". See, daughters have the same bloodline as their mother. They mix it with the blood of another man to produce offspring, but that bloodline is still there. A daughter carries on many of the characteristics, personality traits, practices, & curses of the mother. The daughters may even despise their mother and their own childhood up-bringing, but repeat many of the same mistakes either knowingly or unknowingly. Some they will lessen, & others may even be worsened. The curses of the mother are passed on to the daughters, basically.
See, I believe much/most of the "Protestant/Evangelical" Churchianity is the daughters. They despised their mother's (They sprang out of the Catholic church at the time of the reformation) "paying penance", so they trashed it and adopted a mandatory payment tax system called "tithing" (an OT principle referenced, but not even taught/followed correctly as the Law states it). They got rid of baby water sprinkling baptism and adopted "the recital of the 'sinner's prayer'". They got rid of the "priest" & adopted "The Senior Pastor One Man Pulpit Show". They got rid of the pope and adopted denominational sectarianism. They got rid of "nuns" and adopted women who will dress like prostitutes with cleavage and all exposed right in the assembly of the fellowship which names the Name of Jesus! The Great Harlot is being exposed for mass pedophilia, while her daughters are being exposed daily for mass addiction to pornography, infedelity/adultery, & even some cases of child sexual abuse, etc.
Don't get me wrong, There are true brethren/sistren in these churches, but they are seeing (by God's Grace), that it isn't what God speaks of in the book of Acts, The letters of foundation church doctrine/form in Corinthians, early church history, the underground churches being used by God in countries like Iran/China/N. Korea, etc. These churches are a lot like "cribs" or "play-pens". They can be where you place a baby after its first born, but as soon as they are able/big enough/strong enough, they crawl out over the side and don't want to go back. Please Don't tell me not to "criticize the church", etc., cause I'm not. I'm discerning & showing you the difference between a building full of people calling itself "a" church, & the Fellowship of the Body of Christ that God calls "the Church in (Sardis/Laodicea/Ephesus/etc.)" in Revelation. If Christ today said, " To the Church in Dallas", he wouldn't be speaking to the First Baptist Church of downtown Dallas, or whatever "church" as we see it. He'd be speaking to all the true brethren sprinkled throughout Dallas whether in a "church" (modern church model in a building with a one-man show preaching every week), sprinkled throughout the home church fellowships in Dallas, even true brethren meeting two or three gathered together in His name looking for the real thing spoken of in the scriptures.
We are quick to identify the Catholic Church as the Great Harlot, but we are not do quick to label "Modern Protestant Evangelicalism" as her daughters. We bash another religion that ensnares people (rightfully so) & we protect the idolatrous religious system we set up in its essential image and likeness. Have most people, especially in the West, ever asked themselves, "Who are the Great Harlots many daughters"? Who could it possibly be? Who/What could for the bill? Does all the denominational sects collectively (Baptists/Methodists/Assemblies of God/Lutheran/Pentacostals/etc.) fit the bill? Is there anything/anyone else that could?
| 2012/6/23 11:24|
| Re: jeffmar|
Thankyou, Jeffmar this seems to be the relization that I am coming to, Well said!
| 2012/6/23 11:27||Profile|
| Re: sermonindex |
I understand what you are saying, and I want to be clear that I am not condeming all the people or the leaders ,but we must admit something in the system seems not to work correctly, I am Reminded of Brother Dennys confession He said he was exalted to a place that no man should be and confessed how pride came in. I have been very blessed by Charity and like movements and believe very much that God is involved and I Love them to death.
but something of the pyramid system that all organizations have seems to be dangeours
| 2012/6/23 11:37||Profile|
| Re: |
You aren't advocating that the Catholic Church is part of Christ's Bride are you? True, leadership is Godly, defined properly in scripture (though you don't typically ever see the Biblical Model of Biblical leaders/authority/offices/gifts in reality in the West). There are people who can come to the Lord while attending a Catholic church, but once truly enlightened by the Spirit of God (genuinely converted & filled with the Spirit of God), they see the blatant idolatry (worship of Mary, prayer to the dead expressly forbidden, priests which are abolished in the New Covenant, forbidding to marry which is addressed in the NT as heretical, a "pope" which may be the most Satanic representation of what Catholicism believes of all, etc.). I have known Many in the "Catholic Church" who once they truly got converted saw the Satanic deception and idolatry in the whole system and ran for their very lives.
Maybe I misunderstood/misread your post, but Catholicism and all of its doctrines are heretical and straight from hell. It should not be protected but exposed. It preaches another Jesus, another Gospel, & sends untold millions (maybe Billions?) to hell. "Give no place to false teachers, nor bid them Godspeed. If you do, you become partakers in their sins". Maybe I misunderstood? Acceptance in any way of Catholicism without speaking the truth in love against it and all it's hellish doctrines, has been the first steps into a long slide into total apostacy. Not saying you were/are doing that, but something I have observed over the years. That system is the fruitful spiritual sons of the same Spirit that nailed Jesus to the cross, that martyred untold numbers of believers (usually for wanting their own Bible or refusing the hellish pope/priest system), & has ensnared billions to a lie from hell. This system is not to be catered to, but exposed plainly, clearly, & prophetically. Maybe I misunderstood. It wouldn't be the first time & prolly won't be the last! :-)
| 2012/6/23 11:54|
| Re: |
I went back and reread your post & am quite sure I misread/misunderstood. I thought it woulda seemed very odd based on everything else I have read from you, but have seen so much catering to this system by people I would have NEVER have thought lately, I jumped the gun! :-) like I said, prolly won't be the last time I misread/misunderstand.
True, there are true brethren in such systems, but the system isn't (was never) Gods design laid out in scripture, and will soon be, I believe, all but abolished. I think persecution will bring this about. Just like in China where the state church has buildings, services, Bibles (though not the freedom to preach all of it) & carry on dead lifeless religion every week. Then there's the underground, persecuted, filled with the Spirit of God, & growing powerfully. When persecution comes to the West, you'll see the same. Obviously, I have been greatly blessed by the ministry of people in this system setup, like David Wilkerson, Paul Washer, Denny Kenaston, etc. however, I believe this system has Gone as far as it can go. If God tried to put new wine in that old wineskin, it would burst. He will/is providing a new wineskin to hold the outpouring of the Spirit He will in the days ahead. It will be an amazing work of God under tremendous persecution, but beware: it will return levels of accountability like the early church days. Remember Ananias & Saphira? It sent great fear into the fellowship. Remember those who died when taking the Lord's Supper in the wrong manner? God, His Glory, & His Bride are nothing to toy with. We will see this again, I believe.
| 2012/6/23 12:09|
| Re: |
Zac Poonen has a great sermon as well as articles written on this subject. One being Mystery Babylon vs, New Jerusalem, and Babylon the Great Harlot, also the series From Babylon to Jerusalem. He gives scriptures for reference.
| 2012/6/23 12:22||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: |
Obviously, I have been greatly blessed by the ministry of people in this system setup, like David Wilkerson, Paul Washer, Denny Kenaston, etc. however, I believe this system has Gone as far as it can go.
Though I agree that the chinese church is having a great move of God but if there was no persecution they would meet in more public venues just like us in the west. The difference is their dependence is fully on the Lord and the Holy Spirit and they realize that large stately church buildings are not the church, the people are.
I do not agree that these brothers are in a "system":
David Wilkerson - though pentecostal from background started a non-denominational church that is 100% unique then other pentecostal churches in some of their practices and style. it is truly a unique work of the holy Spirit in New York.
Paul Washer - was part of a church that was in the Southern Baptist denomination but then ended up moving away from that church and they have established an independent church on the older baptist traditions of that of Spurgeon, etc. I would say their meetings though more traditional are still led of the Holy Spirit.
Denny Kenaston - Moved away from strict fundamentalist baptist churches and went into older mennonite areas where God used him powerfully to establish a new wineskin with some anabaptistic traditions or style. A very unique work of God's holy spirit especially as a mission work to the amish and old order mennonites.
to just strictly meet in homes does not constitute a better church by any means. This is displayed in the lack of any true holy spirit unity or growth in home churches across North America.
And when leadership is ignored in which 1 peter 5 and other passages clearly instruct must be in place then we start to have people gathering to themselves and their own authority.
Any apostolic movement is bigger then itself and will recognize others around them.
God is always raising up new works because simply an older denomination ceases to look to Him as their trust. There is no perfect church or movement.
Even in the chinese church there are 7-10 groupings of home church networks and each one varies slighility in practice and ideals.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2012/6/23 12:55||Profile|
| Re: babylon|
I grew up in what could be deemed a pretty closed off fellowship of churches. There was no real central leadership. Each church in the movement varied to some degree in minor doctrines. Yet all held to the central tenants of the doctrines of the movement and all supported a common Bible College that taught these doctrines. Organization consisted of each church having a certain number of votes in the business of the Bible College. Most every church was run by a board and pastors were often little more than hirelings who were sometimes under pressure from the congregants if they did not preach certain things or if their preaching strayed too far from the accepted norms.
God led me from there to a work where one man pretty much ran the show. It was a non-denominational work, connected to no other work. There was not board, and the pastor and his wife were the only ones who were viewed as elders. There was another leader who performed as an elder, though this leader was not officially recognized. In many ways this leader wielded a great amount of influence to the point of almost being the tail that wagged the dog.
We now fellowship in a church that is part of a well established, large pentecostal denomination. This denomination has a bishop over bishops who are over regions with groups of churches. But the leadership structure does not seem to effect the individual church much at all. This church is healthy and growing.
I have also had the privilege of moving among many other churches in our area. One in particular has a five man leadership team. One man seems to carry the vision primarily, but all five are in submission the one to another in decisions pertaining to the church. This place is healthy and growing.
My point in relating this is that I have found that each organizational structure has its strengths and weaknesses. However the main weakness of every structure seems to be the flesh of the men that are part of the structure. God is so marvelously longsuffering with our ideas of good organization. He seems to move powerfully among people whose hearts are completely his regardless of the particular governmental structure of the church.
Structure is a necessary framework. Paul established churches and ordained elders in every city to oversee the church in that city. He often waited until the church has rocked along on its own for a year or two before he went back to ordain these elders. I assume this allowed him to choose men who had already filtered to the top spiritually and showed signs of being capable spiritual leaders in the city. Much is said in the New Testament about leadership structure. Whole chapters are devoted to bishop/elders and to deacons. God has ordained leadership and governmental structure within the church.
But structure can vary based on the factors that press upon the individual church. House churches in China, where our concept of church buildings with ministry programs is impossible, will have a structure that is suitable to overseeing and leading those people. A large church in America with many ministry programs will have a structure that looks very different from the Chinese house church structure. A small, rural church may look different from either of these.
The real issue is not the structure, but the spiritual condition of the men within the structure. We are told to lay hands on no man suddenly. This is in the context of ordination for leadership. We must never be hasty about ordaining men into leadership positions within the structure of the church. To do so can easily cause us to be bogged down in the effects of their own sinful condition.
I personally believe that in any body, local or larger, that a plurality of eldership who are carefully and prayerfully ordained and who are committed to being in submission one to another is the best governmental structure. I personally believe that pastors, evangelists, teachers, apostles, and prophets are not necessarily supposed to be the ones who serve as the CEO's of ministries, but rather are gifts in the body who do the work of teaching, training, and maturing the body so that the body can do the work of the ministry. They can fulfill the roles of eldership, but do not necessarily do so.
But my personal belief aside, I see the Holy Spirit moving in a wonderful way, people being won to the Lord and discipled to maturity, and great fruit coming from all sorts of different systems of organization and government.
Its not the system, its the leaders within the system.
One more quick note: I am not convinced that the harlot in Rev. is necessarily the Roman Catholic church, although I do believe people from the Roman Catholic church, along with the Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, etc. will comprise the false church. I also believe that the true and living church consists of people who attend fellowships that bear the name of Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Pentecostal...well, you get the idea.
| 2012/6/23 13:27||Profile|