SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : scripture verse question

Print Thread (PDF)

PosterThread
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 scripture verse question

1 John 5:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

_____________________

Was doing some Bible study with my youngest son and we came across this passage. What is John speaking to in this passage concerning sin that leads to death?

God bless
mj

 2012/6/20 12:18Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37222
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re: scripture verse question


I like what David Guzik said in his commentary at this point:

i. This is a difficult concept, but we have an example of it in 1 Corinthians 11:27-30, where Paul says that among the Christians in Corinth, because of their disgraceful conduct at the Lord’s Supper, some had died (many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep). This death came not as a condemning judgment, but as a corrective judgment (But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world, 1 Corinthians 11:32).

ii. Apparently, a believer can sin to the point where God believes it is just best to bring them home, probably because they have in some way compromised their testimony so significantly that they should just come on home to God.


d. I do not say that he should pray about that: Apparently, when a Christian is being corrected in regard to a sin leading to death, there is no point in praying for his recovery or restoration - the situation is in God’s hands alone.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/6/20 12:31Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Thank you Greg. I have heard this before now that you mention it and I feel I understand better. I will share this with my son also. This is interesting because we have talked much about sin and the consequence of sinning against GOD.

God Bless
mj

 2012/6/20 12:52Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re: scripture verse question

Hi! MaryJane
I read the other Comments to your Thread here and they all explained things rather well. So, I'm assuming that you already have your answer.

Nevertheless, I would perhaps explain it this way:
Did yuh ever wonder why Jesus could be easily found sitting down an' eatin' an' chattin' with the tax collectors and prostitutes and other social misfits but not with the religious leaders of His day?

Well, these verses from 1John which you mentioned are something of an answer to that question.
Jesus had no trouble associating with people who were violated in body, soul or spirit. It was only with the spiritually deaf and blind guides that He had a problem. Whenever Jesus encountered them, they clashed again and again!

The religious leaders were incapable of readily coming to Jesus and believing in Him because the father of lies had blinded their eyes and their ears.

There is talk of 'seeing sin' and a 'sin to death' in the verses you mentioned.

'Seeing sin' is about sinning against the commandments of God in the visible world. These sins can be confessed and then they are forgiven. Even if accompanied by bondage, the evil can be expelled in the Name of Jesus.

For instance, when a child of God steals, he does so in the visible world and, when his conscience accuses him, his spirit can still be free. If a brother or sister comes up to him, they can appeal to his conscience. If we see someone sinning, we have the task to approach and kindly warn him. The admonition is to function in the positive atmosphere of love. Paul wrote in 1Timothy 1:5: "The goal of all commandment is love from a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith".

"Sin unto death"; is about sinning in the invisible world. It occurs when one is connected to seducing spirits which cause a person to not really desire to think or live differently. The spirit of this person does not focus on the Word of God and the Holy Spirit but instead is inspired by deceiving spirits, and by the father of lies. He is lost because he does not love the truth so he could be saved, (2Thess 2:10-12).

In 1John 4:6, it speaks about the "spirit of error". It is impossible through prayer and by "ministry" to redeem someone from their attachment to a "spirit of error".

An adulterer or a thief knows that he sins. But a man bound by deceiving lies does not seek forgiveness because he is largely unaware of his contact with lies and falsehood. Instead, he says, "What I believe is true and what I confess, is sure."

Although we may recognize that such men are deceived, they are usually not approachable. Therefore, the only thing one can do with such a person is to pronounce the Word of God in love because it is "living and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, it penetrates so deep, even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart", (Heb 4:12).

Only a changed understanding can lead such a man to repentance. The man must first detach himself from the deceiving spirits. This is why it mentions that with such people we should not pray. Instead, we offer them words of love for God with the hope that their inner thoughts might be renewed. This is the only way which you can help someone combat/overcome the sin unto death.

This is why you never read about Jesus casting the deceiving spirits from the religious people (scribes and Pharisees) of His day. Instead, He confronted them about the true origin and nature of their predicament.

The only thing that we can do for those intertwined with 'sin to death' is to try to change their thinking. Their sin is that, in spite of their knowing God's word and the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to them, they insist to clutch on to the lies and remain attached to falsehoods.

====================
scripture verse question
by MaryJane on 2012/6/20 9:18:03

1 John 5:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
====================

 2012/6/20 14:47Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5389
NC, USA

 Re:

I really like the JB Phillips translation of these verses:

"If any of you should see his brother committing a sin (I don’t mean deliberately turning his back on God and embracing evil), he should pray to God for him and secure fresh life for the sinner. It is possible to commit sin that is a deliberate embracing of evil and that leads to spiritual death—that is not the sort of sin I have in mind when I recommend prayer for the sinner. Every failure to obey God’s laws is sin, of course, but there is sin that does not preclude repentance and forgiveness."

It really clears this difficult passage up for me.


_________________
Todd

 2012/6/20 16:09Profile
lindi1208
Member



Joined: 2011/3/8
Posts: 162


 Re: Scripture verse question

Hi saints

Blayne wrote "In 1John 4:6, it speaks about the "spirit of error". It is impossible through prayer and by "ministry" to redeem someone from their attachment to a "spirit of error".

This a thought I find interesting. Has anyone ever had experience whereby when praying for someone (especially a Christian) God speaks and says do not pray about this issue or pray for this person? I hope you understand what I am trying to put across that maybe during prayer God forbids the one praying to continue praying for a deceived Christian who keeps rejecting the truth of God's written word by continuing in wilful sin and rebellion to God's commands.

Some example of this could be love of money, honour or recognition of men, pride, adultery and an unteachable spirit. For example they are in a adulterous relationship and make excuses for their sin by saying the flesh can not live without sexual intimacy and God will surely understand their need to satisfy their flesh. An example of a spirit of error using grace as a license to sin!

After lovingly sharing the truth with such a Christian that we are to put to death the deeds of the body by the spirit and deny the flesh, they continue to reject this and do as they please yet professing Christ without any thought for continuing in sin. After continual prayers God then forbids intercessory prayers on behalf of that person.Is this an example of what you mean Blayne?



_________________
Lindi

 2012/6/20 16:44Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! lindi1208

Wow! I jus' 'bout fell off my chair when noticing that someone had actually commented to something I contributed here. It hasn't been happenin' much lately. :)
Yuh made my day! It can be awfully lonely writing to MouseLand and not hearing even a peep of response. :)

I dare not comment on the personal experiences which you described other than to say: we have to be exceedingly careful about assigning the 'sin of death' to persons. For instance, your description "a deceived Christian who keeps rejecting the truth of God's written word" is one thing. But when it becomes attached with "in willful sin and rebellion to God's commands" and/or "love of money, honour or recognition of men, pride, adultery", it becomes something quite different.

The 'seeing sin' begins in the unseen world but ends in the visible world. For instance, a thief is tempted from the invisible world but the sin is manifested in the visible world.
The "sin leading to death" is said to be invisible because it both begins and ends in the unseen world. Lies and falsehood originate in the unseen world and injure the unseen spirit of man.

My original comments to this Thread should not be regarded as a grave doctrinal statement. I was simply stating the simple and practical purposes behind the verses; that something else other than prayer is required in certain cases.

Some sins are committed after temptation by powers of sin. A stumbling block is put in the path of the Christian and, sometimes, before he realizes what happens, he has committed a sinful act. If a brother, a Christian, commits this type of sin, we may pray for him and claim the cleansing power of the blood of the Lamb and, provided he confesses his sin, he will be restored in his position of child of God.

A "sin leading to death" has deeper roots. While it is caused by similar powers, the inspiration is attached to the person's inner man. This sin is deadly in that it will inevitably result in death, physical, spiritual, or both, unless the cause of the sin, the deceiving powers, are exposed and overcome.

The "sin leading to death" is deadly, not in an absolute, final sense; rather, in the sense that the inner man, or a certain part of it, is under the sway of death, under the control of the powers of darkness. Unless the person is set free, this sin will result in ultimate death.

I gave the example of why it is that the Scriptures do not record Jesus praying for the religious leaders of His day. The Pharisees and scribes were completely opposed to the teachings of Jesus. A "spirit of offense" had attached itself to their inner man which caused them to behave viciously. They loved the lie more than the truth. As such, there is no prayer which could reach them. Only the working of the Word of God could intervene and redeem/restore them.

The question asked by Jesus, "Do you want to be made whole?" is always the crucial, (John 5:6). There are some who initially don't desire to be made whole; to forfeit their false ideas or doctrines. The laying on of hands is ineffectual until they themselves come to a place of desiring to be made whole.

So? Did I explain things a little better now and maybe answered your question better too?

============================
Re: Scripture verse question
by lindi1208 on 2012/6/20 13:44:45

Hi saints

Blayne wrote "In 1John 4:6, it speaks about the "spirit of error". It is impossible through prayer and by "ministry" to redeem someone from their attachment to a "spirit of error".
=============================

 2012/6/20 18:57Profile
lindi1208
Member



Joined: 2011/3/8
Posts: 162


 Re:

Hi Blayne

Thanks for your response I sought of understand better what you meant in the original post: ). My expample isn't a doctrine just a way of trying to explain a situation whereby the Lord may forbid continual prayers for a fellow Christian. It could be that maybe the prayer is coming from the wrong place( the flesh )therefore God forbids that prayer as He searches the heart of the Intercessor.

My question still remains as I am having trouble understanding how one would know not to pray for the one whose sin leads to death if that sin remains invisible and in the inner man

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

How does one know that this sin leads to death without the sin being visible. One can tell if a Christian is following a spirit of error by the fruit of their lives and abundance of heart.Like the Pharisees they loved the praise of men more than God, they loved money they resisted correction and truth they were stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears yet they professed to know God and follow the law. Were these attributes not the visible manifestation of the invisible spirit of error ?


_________________
Lindi

 2012/6/20 20:24Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! lindi1208

Oh, your additional comments give me a better understanding of your thinking too ... thanks!
I should first apologize for how I express things; it can all seem a foreign language to those unfamiliar with the 'Gospel of the Kingdom'.

Ummm, it has been over thirty years now since I have learned to use the keys of the kingdom (Matt 16:19) when reading the Scriptures and I often end up using uncommon words to describe things. Sorry 'bout that. :)

Anywayz, how 'bout I explain it this way:
We can absolutely say that prayer is definitely effectual towards every sinner and every sin that is a violation of conscience ... a matter of bad behavior/morals ... something against the 10 Commandments.

But prayer is not always effectual when a man becomes blindly and stubbornly ensnared with deceptive ideas or false teachings because such a person is captivated by a "sin unto death".

All we have to do is to look around our Christian neighborhood ... we have people who are unable to distinguish between their faith which attaches them to God and their ideology which attaches them to a denomination or a political party 'er whatever. Eventually these people become so utterly bound to double-mindedness that they become empty chattering shells of person. Talking a 'good game'; nonetheless, total 'losers'.
It is these kind of people who have tied their inner beings up in knots of fathomless confusion and contrariety and made themselves beyond effectual prayer.
It's not that we give up on these kind of people. Rather, we should simply recognize their dilemma for what it is and trust that their own agony will cause them to rethink and recover.

You asked: "Were these attributes not the visible manifestation of the invisible spirit of error?"
The quick answer is, no.
Have you ever bumped into a Christian who had a short fuse and zero-tolerance for anyone not agreeing with their particular slant on things? The kind of people who can't hide their snarls of disagreement; become near hysterical about some trivial doctrine? Well, these kind of people are likely candidates to be attached to a "sin unto death".
It's not that they behaved immoral or loved money or coveted another's goods. Quite the opposite, from all appearances, they were good Christians. That is ... until you entered into the zone of their captivity.
Then they suck the wind right from under your very toes! They become easily offended and argumentative about what you believe ... boasting that they have the-truth-an'-nothing-but-the-truth. Not long afterwards they begin to rant about how you are so utterly lost an' whatever.

So? Do you see what I mean by saying that the "sin unto death" happens in the invisible world of the spirits? It's not like when someone steals something because that happens in the visible world ... you can see the theft happen. But what a person believes ... the darkness of his inner captivity to falsehood is something that cannot be seen ...therefore 'invisible'.
A boastful proud man's behavior is easily visible by how he might walk or dress. The same with someone who loves money; they might drive an excessively expensive car. But a man lost in his own labyrinth of false teachings and maze of errror is not easily detected because his "sin" originates from out of the kingdom of darkness which is not visible to the human eye.


================================
Re:
by lindi1208 on 2012/6/20 17:24:10

Hi Blayne

Thanks for your response I sought of understand better what you meant in the original post: ). My expample isn't a doctrine just a way of trying to explain a situation whereby the Lord may forbid continual prayers for a fellow Christian. It could be that maybe the prayer is coming from the wrong place( the flesh )therefore God forbids that prayer as He searches the heart of the Intercessor.

My question still remains as I am having trouble understanding how one would know not to pray for the one whose sin leads to death if that sin remains invisible and in the inner man

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."

How does one know that this sin leads to death without the sin being visible. One can tell if a Christian is following a spirit of error by the fruit of their lives and abundance of heart.Like the Pharisees they loved the praise of men more than God, they loved money they resisted correction and truth they were stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears yet they professed to know God and follow the law. Were these attributes not the visible manifestation of the invisible spirit of error ?
================================




 2012/6/20 22:50Profile
lindi1208
Member



Joined: 2011/3/8
Posts: 162


 Re:

Hi Blayne

Ah finally I get it! took a while though lol at times it takes a while to digest some information lol: ). I see what you mean by your latter example of the good Christian who will nevertheless argue you to death if you don't agree with them. Sometimes one has to graciously bow out so as to keep the remaining wind in them :). You have explained it better! Thanks!

Funnily enough I must confess that in the past I have been argumentative about trivial doctrines very zealously too lol: ). I used to do this a lot when I first came to Christ. I would argue with other christians if I thought they had it wrong in some matter. God has been very gracious to me and has lovingly patiently put me straight. As I studied the scriptures I began to see how I ought to listen more and be slow to speak.I talk less than I used to now and I certainly know for a fact that I don't know it all especially when it comes to doctrine : )

This scripture definitely needs one to medititate and dwell on it at lenghth. I do also like the other interpretations offered on the thread! Sometimes it's easy to grasp the truth and at other times it takes years even to fully understand the meaning of difficult scriptures.

I believe constant Spirit led prayer, using scripture in context and use of other verses in the bible do help in giving a most scriptually sound balanced understanding. Thank you for taking the time to explain your post: ) be blessed brother!

Lindi


_________________
Lindi

 2012/6/21 4:53Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy