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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : "I don't feel guilty" Ray Comfort/ Daily Evidence

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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
do you think it is better to share at least one of the commandments and show them how they cannot keep it and then allow them to back away from it by helping them with an excuse so that they know they aren't good enough and God understands?



My concern with the Ray Comfort method is that it is founded on a naive perception of the conscience.

Take for example our own SI community. How often have we seen rebukes regarding the way we treat each other. The great commandment is violated quite regularly amongst us. We fall short in our ability to consider others' interests and listen to them carefully. Yet we all know that "laying down the law" fails to fix the problem. Laying down the law cannot override the human propensity to justify or deny one's behavior ... or it simply doesn't produce enough guilt to produce change.

If this problem is so pervasive amongst "conscientious" believers, why would the Comfort method work better for unbelievers!?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/6/22 13:25Profile









 Jesus Saves.

"Yet we all know that "laying down the law" fails to fix the problem. Laying down the law cannot override the human propensity to justify or deny one's behavior ... or it simply doesn't produce enough guilt to produce change."

"If this problem is so pervasive amongst "conscientious" believers, why would the Comfort method work better for unbelievers!?"...Roadsign..[ Diane. ]

I think you hit the root of the idea Diane; very astute. The ministry of Evangelism is a ministry of the Holy Spirit. I think of Peter at Pentecost and later, Stephen's preaching at his murder.

Stephen: “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

"Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”...and they murdered him.

The Holy Spirit Jahweh wrote the LAW, and in reality resisting or perverting the Law is resisting the Holy Spirit. Earlier Peter preached:

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "

....and they received the Word, and the conviction of God. One responded with murderous indignation; one responded with acceptance and change. It is a matter of the heart, I think, and our tenderness toward Him. Also, some are prepared to receive by God, and some are not. It is a matter of time.

Remember Paul the Apostle was on the murderers side when Stephen preached, and heard the truth. God had to prepare him, and He did, but later.The Sovereign has time and space at His disposal, for unseen reasons. It is the same for us. Jesus saves.




 2012/6/22 14:59
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Jesus Saves.

Quote:
The Holy Spirit



Amen brother! This is God’s great and mighty antidote: God’s solution for the human sin problem – just as promised in the Bible’s centerfold page: Jeremiah 31: “I will put my law in their hearts, I will write it on their minds”. :33

It’s God’s transformative work on the conscience.
It’s God himself dwelling within through relationship.



Amazing!




Diane





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Diane

 2012/6/22 15:21Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7452
Mississippi

 Re: Jesus Saves.

There have been numerous methods marketed in years past to assist the Believer in witnessing, each with their own success stories.

When I was a young woman it was "Evangelism Explosion" by D. James Kennedy. Now in recent years it is Ray Comfort.

When I took orientation classes to work as a counselor at the Crises Pregnancy Center, we were also taught strategies in how to get people to understand the horror of abortion, their own sinfulness, etc.

So, there are many strategies a body can use to get people to agree with you. But it likely will not result in life changing decisions.

Still.

While they all have their own merits, conviction of sin still resides with the Holy Spirit.

When one relies on any strategy you are working in the power of the flesh - and it is not hard to get people to agree with you IF you use psychology. Not hard at all - if you are charming enough.

Eventually, I learned at CPC to rely on the still small voice of the Holy Spirit to tell me what to say. When I did that my goal changed and that was to assist this person in their understanding of God's will for their lives. We encountered strange situations which required heavenly wisdom to know how to deal with it - I had no clue what to say, none. But when the Spirit told me to start talking I had no clue what I was going to say - the words just came. When one uses this strategy, you are left feeling you were indeed assisting the Holy Spirit in his work in this person's life.

Still, these strategies are not sin but if you depend on it to do the work of the Holy Spirit and work to box him in, I think one is bound to fail.

My opinion and experience...


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/6/22 15:30Profile









 Breaking the law is not the real issue

Keeping the law is not the real issue.

It is impossible to become a Christian by attempting to keep the law.

Sin is not the real issue either. It is impossible to become a Christian by attempting to stop sinning.

True Christianity is embracing The Person of Christ and experiencing His Life within you.

The unbeliever does not do this.

 2012/6/22 17:05









 Re: Breaking the law is not the real issue

I think many on here do not fully understand the aproach of law to the proud and grace to the humble that Ray ministers with.

I understand the shortcomings because it is easy to misunderstand what Ray has been called by God to do.
God called Ray to come to the United States and minister the use of the law in evangelism. Bill Gothard, David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill as well as many others have come to see the need for this forgotten key to be a part of over all Gospel proclamation.

Ray is never using the Law to get people to start obeying the law. He points out that ultimatly they cannot and they will perish under the law. Part of why this is needed is because most people proclaim their own goodness.

Pr 20:6 ¶ Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find? {goodness: or, bounty}
(KJV)


The Answer Ray reveals is of course that He who knew no sin became sin for us. That if we Repent and put our trust/faith in Christs Righteousness we will pass from death to life. We are then saved unto good works prepared in Christ Jesus.

Ray also has said in his basic course and I will paraphrase. That you do not always have to take people through the law. You may encounter someone who is already fully convicted and humble. You then reveal Jesus to them.

Also this is not just "Comforts method"

All the "great revivalist and preachers over the ages have used what is called "preliminary law work"in their preaching at various points.

Finally for now I will say that with so many christians Ray just cannot get a break. Even though Ray is one of the most gifted preachers, speakers. His ministry has always been ran without scandal. He can talk to anyone and has talked to and witnesssed with more people than anyone on this forum.(Edit add I believe I am safe to assume this.)


Well even after all that I know that some on here will not be convinced Hopefully that will change.

God bless, John





 2012/6/22 18:06
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Excellent posts Brothertom, Dianne. and ginnyrose!

I remember when I first heard “hell’s best kept secret” and I really enjoyed it. Then later on I saw how he evangelized using as his main focus the Law and I saw something, I felt as well as seeing in the book of acts, that it wasn’t quite right for every situation.

If you will notice in the book of Acts the apostles always depended on the Holy Spirit to convict the lost and their main focus was to preach Jesus to everybody that would listen. I haven’t read any place in the book of acts where they ever used the Law as their main approach to people, but it was always the message of Jesus Christ.

 2012/6/22 23:48Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

i think we do see as was said petter telling the jews in the first evengelical to repent ,and jews allready new the law and what it means to repent ,accoring to there own scripture so peter never needed to go through a list of sins ,,he did however tell them they killed the lord jesus them self that was more then likly what cut them to the heart vers 23 of seconed chapter of acts

YOU HAVE TAKEN ,BY LAWLESS HANDS ,

HAVE CRUSAFIED ,,,AND PUT TO DEATH

peter has used the law lawfully ,with the leading of the holy spirit

probably in the first 5 minuties of his preaching to lawfully condem the actions of the jew

so the preaching of christ crusafied ,and the resarection and the lawless deeds of the jews were all propagated in one message


so far the love of god was not mentioned as is evedent

peter also used the propherts of old to convict them of the resarection ,and even the mention of the asention to the fathers right hand was added

then just to make sure the jews were convicted of sin
the holy spirit through peter ,,again convicts them the seconed time of mudering jesus on the cross

then they were cut to the heart by the holy spirit

then as we know HE SAID REPENT

AND ITS TRUE ,he said many other things after this first exortation

BE SAVED ,FROM THIS PERVERSE GENERATION

he by the holy spirit labled the whole generation

PERVERSE

this sort of preaching would be concidered over the top and condeming my many people

now im not advocation this ,,,but the love of god was not mentioned by luke ,,,,,

the gosple was preached by peter along with convicting language regarding the peoples sins

he did not in any way just preach christ crusafied and the love of god in a shalow narrow scence ,,as we see many doing to day

then we see the next recorded preaching of peter

the first thing he said to the amased jews
who were stunded by the mirical ,in much perplexedy

YOU DELIEVER UP ,GODS SERVENT JESUS TO PILATE
YOU DENIED THE HOLY ONE
YOU KILLED THE PRINCE OF LIFE ACTS 3..13 AND 14

WE SEE againg peter moved by the holy spirit
convicting them of murder

these were hard hearted jews who believed they did nothing wrong ,,peter more or less used the law that they new and aplyed to them ,,,,he did not need to say

you shall not kill ,, they allready new that comand

verses 19,a few minutes later ,he comands them by the holy spirit to REPENT ,,
THEN GOES TO the law and the propherts, to bulster his convictings words ,in vers 22

and uses the prophecy from the one moses who gave the law
to reveal the condemnation ,these men will experance
if they do not repent and believe this message ,wich is truly good news about christ and his salvation

some believed ,others had them arested ,after phisicaly restraing them


this gopsle peter was preaching was not a waterd down version we see today in some chruches is it

imagin the upraw that this gosple produced
imagin brethern the upraw this would produe to day

imagin the upraw ,that weasly and whitfield prodused
preaching a similar gosple

just think the next day after this preacher peter such convicting mesage ,,he againg in custady chapter 4 verss 8/ 12
he boldy said again YOU KILLED HIM ,BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD

no hey brethern, god loves you ,so come be baptise ,make a confessions that jesus is lord ,and pray a prayer with me ect ect

now im not saying dont say god loves you as such

my point is the goplse preacherd by peter was powerfull and it mentiond to the hearers with out argument that they had sinned ,and what sin it was

iv read that part of acts so many times i even memorised a good pourshen ,,,,but the more i read it slowly i see the message was always combined with the idea of reptence and the showing the listener that they have broken gods law

blessings brethren

 2012/6/23 3:40Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:


Quote:
Ray also has said in his basic course and I will paraphrase. That you do not always have to take people through the law. You may encounter someone who is already fully convicted and humble. You then reveal Jesus to them.


Thank you John, We do want to be careful not to lean too far to one side at the exclusion of the other side. There is a vital place for law! Scripture uses the imagery of the law court to reveal the need for Jesus Christ – who both absolves us and provides himself to a new source of Law (the Spirit within).

Every single human operates according to laws formed in their conscience. How are those laws formed? How does morality take shape in the conscience? Is it the proverbial "slap on the wrist"? That assumption is a gross over simplification.

While we wish to acknowledge the role of the Spirit, we also must acknowledge the place of human relationship and attachment as a vital means for the formation of conscience. (and remember, The Spirit works through relationship as well: our relationship with God)

Therefore I quote a portion of the research summery which arose out of a massive government-sponsored study by professionals in response to the crisis of adolescence in our society. The Study is called "Hard-wired to connect".
---------


The Moralization of Attachment

The beginning of morality is the biologically primed moralization of attachment. This “born-to-attachness” is the essential foundation for the emergence of conscience and of moral meaning. The human child is talked into talking and loved into loving.
Moralization is a value-driven sense of oughtness which emerges within specific human behavioral systems governing attachment (bonding), emotional regulation (mood stability), cognitive processing (thinking), and volition (will). Human connectedness guides the child’s readiness to behave in response to parent wishes and attentiveness. (Stillwell)

The absence of connectedness has the same symptoms in children who’d been deprived of their mothers:
– superficial relationships
– poverty of feeling for others
– inaccessibility
– lack of emotional response
– often pointless deceitfulness and theft
– inability to concentrate in school

The moral needs of children are not merely personal and private, but also social and shared. The ongoing development of morality in later childhood and adolescence involves the human capacity to idealize individuals and ideas. The moralization of attachment later extends outward to the larger community, making possible a growing cognitive capacity, widening networks of relationships, and
new and additional sources of moral meaning. This facilitates the human capacity for awe, worship, and idealization. (Gutmann)

Moral development in later childhood and adolescence requires role models. We tend to imitate in moral terms: We become those whom we admire. We imitate moral conduct often discussed as pro-social.
The protective impact of extra-familial adult relationships for young people is well demonstrated by numerous researchers. That includes other adult relatives, friends' parents, teachers, or adults in health and social service setting. A sense of connectedness to adults is a protective factor against an array of health-jeopardizing behaviors of adolescents, and has protective effects for both girls and boys across various ethnic, racial and social class groups.


----------------------------------

I will add more of the document later: “The Spiriutalization of Attachment.”

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/6/23 6:36Profile









 Re: "I don't feel guilty" Ray Comfort/ Daily Evidence

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

"There is nothing unclean of itself". Amazing words.

But to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

What is unclean to you?

There are some Christian groups that if they see a woman cut her hair or wear jeans she is in sin and has a seared conscience.

How far do we go with this?

 2012/6/23 8:53





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