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 end times prophesy

"They shall beat their swords into plowshares; and their spears into pruning hooks; One nation shall not raise the sword against another, nor shall they train for war again. Every person shall sit under their own vine or under their own fig tree, undisturbed; for the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken." Micah 4:3-4

This prophesy from Micah seems to contradict those of Revelations in that they have completely different outcomes. A world of Peace in one and global war in the other.

can any of you shed some light on this?

 2005/2/11 16:20
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re: end times prophesy

That's an interesting point in light of the pre-millenial vs. post-millenial debate, of which I was just reminded by this part of a blog I read:

Quote:
The third paragraph reveals that what Nick Gier doesn't know about Presbyterian theology could be the basis for a great library, the likes of which the world has never seen. He says, "Of greatest concern, however is the fundamentalist view of the violent end of the world." He says this about me, and Steve Wilkins, even though both of us are postmillennialists, which is the view that the future of the world is going to be characterized by an approaching and inexorable peace. The lion will lie down with the lamb. The spears will be beaten into pruning hooks. Cats and dogs will get along. In the coming millennial glory, philosophy professors will start making sense. Confusing us with the lurid end-of-the-worlders and Armageddoners is like confusing licorice with Altoids



This is relevant to your question in that it is possible that Revelation isn't foretelling a violent end of the world, but is instead foretelling some very violent events that would take place fairly soon after the writing of the book (in and around 70 A.D., for instance, if it can be shown Revelation could have been written before then).

But perhaps it would be better to first discuss the reconciliation with the Micah passage with the pre-millenial interpretation of Revelation, to see how your original question might be answered.

 2005/2/11 16:41Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jake
The last time you asked this question was 2004/1/2 16:32, in the this thread.

Are you asking it again because you didn’t like the answer you got the last time? We all know that you don't believe in the Revelation, so what do you hope to prove by asking the same questions?

The simple answer is that is has to do with different time periods. Here are two statements, which is 'true'?

The light said 'Don't walk'
The light said 'Walk'

Just stand by the side of one and look and you will see that both statements are true... but not at the same time.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/2/11 16:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Just stand by the side of one and look and you will see that both statements are true... but not at the same time.



I like that example... I'm gonna borrow that!

Krispy

 2005/2/14 15:15
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

I like that example... I'm gonna borrow that!
Krispy



He has had many borrow his little gems, and you know what the most amazing thing is, its all in his head. ;-)

p.s. Not that he is in his head mad....I think I'm changing feet. Cheers


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2005/2/14 15:59Profile









 Re:

... he must have a big head! LOL

 2005/2/14 16:13









 Re: end times


The problem with Ron's response is that the Micah quote states that swords will be beat into ploughshares and that men will no longer train for war. Well, outside of Rawanda nobody wages war with swords anymore. The Micah prophesy has to be allegorical of a future time and it is clearly in conflict with Revelations' prophesy of war that destroys nearly everything and then earth is restored for a thousand years by Christ.

Our current President and many of his cohorts believe the Revelations prophesies and believe that they must build powerful conquering militaries so as to be prepared. Theirs is a self-fulfilling interpretation. The more they build a strong military and seek new nuclear weapons, the more every other country will do so as well. Round and round we go.

The devil is clearly behind this. In order to prepare the world for the second coming of Christ, many, many people have to be killed. (according to their beliefs.) They will willingly do this and claim they act out of Christian concern and because they are preparing the way for the Rapture and second coming.

Christians should be imitating Jesus' Love and pacifism and should not support killing of any kind. Doing so is a perversion of His teachings and life.

Bub

 2005/2/14 17:35
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: I wonder

Luke 3:14 doesn't seem that , what Jesus called the greatest prophet born had anything to say against the war these soldiers would wage.Just thier ethic and character.


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/2/15 1:10Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:
The problem with Ron's response is that the Micah quote states that swords will be beat into ploughshares and that men will no longer train for war. Well, outside of Rawanda nobody wages war with swords anymore. The Micah prophesy has to be allegorical of a future time and it is clearly in conflict with Revelations' prophesy of war that destroys nearly everything and then earth is restored for a thousand years by Christ.



Bub
First of all contrary to popular belief people in rwanda and burundi do have machine guns and so forth. Machetes (different from swords) are also common in many other parts of the world. Micah's prophecy falls AFTER the tribulation described in the revelation. If you read revelation itself you will see that Christ Himself says that these things must come to pass before I come. AFTER He returns then there will be 1000 yrs of peace. Now the talk of the beating of swords into ploughshares may also mean the refocusing of resources (brainpower, manpower, money etc) from making war to other things that benefit everyone.


Quote:
The devil is clearly behind this. In order to prepare the world for the second coming of Christ, many, many people have to be killed. (according to their beliefs.) They will willingly do this and claim they act out of Christian concern and because they are preparing the way for the Rapture and second coming.



by that are you saying that the devil is behind what is written in Revelation? if so that would be blaspheming the Word of God. Revelation itself comes with a warning, if anyone takes away from it's meaning, he will lose the same portion from his heavenly reward, if someone adds to it then that same portion is added to his punishment. be very careful what you say about this book. In fact I urge you to leave it alone completely and let God deal with you as He needs to so that you may be able to understand this book.

Quote:
Christians should be imitating Jesus' Love and pacifism and should not support killing of any kind. Doing so is a perversion of His teachings and life.



I don't think anyone supports or likes the idea of a large portion of the earth's population in terms of people, animals, plant life etc being wiped out. but this is what God has willed because we have sinned against Him. I mean can you go to heaven and say to GOd " look God you have this whole second coming thing all wrong, there is no need for all the killing etc, here's how I suggest you handle it."? I don't know maybe you think so, you can believe that if you want to, but as with anything, there are certain consequences that come with that. The true punishment for this is that we all go to hell but God loved us so much that He made a way for us to be saved.

We should certainly emulate Christ's example but remember Christ suffered and died a horrible death. do you honestly think Bubbaguy that even if God didn't spare His only begotten, His #1, His sinless sun son from such a brutal death that yu and I can dodge that bullet? again you can believe that if you want to, if you're right then it's all good but if not I hope that if you do you'll be ready for whatever consequences come with it.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/2/15 2:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The devil is clearly behind this. In order to prepare the world for the second coming of Christ, many, many people have to be killed. (according to their beliefs.) They will willingly do this and claim they act out of Christian concern and because they are preparing the way for the Rapture and second coming.



I've never heard our president say that.

I don't want to drift off into politics.... but since it was brought up...

You need to study history. Why did the Soviet Union colapse? Because Ronald Reagan stood toe to toe with them, and built up our military to a point that the Soviet Union went bankrupt trying to keep up. Now they have some resemblence of freedom there.

What people fail to see is that there is evil in the world. There will always be evil in the world until Judgement Day. Evil leaders will not stop spreading evil simply because the US decides to cut back on it's military might. That was proven during the Carter administration, and during the Clinton administration. Both men cut our military to shreds, and the result was almost devastating for our country. Terrorists do not care who are president is, they hate us because we are not Muslim. They only understand violence, and therefore it is the only way to deal with them.

Quote:
Christians should be imitating Jesus' Love and pacifism and should not support killing of any kind. Doing so is a perversion of His teachings and life.



David was a man of war... and God called him a "man after God's own heart."

Bubbaguy, you're an evolutionist who denies the literal interpretation of the Bible. As such, you come from a presupposition that is vastly different from the rest of us... making any type of debate based on scripture to be an exercise in futility. But keep hanging in there with us, my friend... you may learn something.

By the way... it's Revelation... not Revelation[b]S[/b]. Sorry, thats just a pet peave of mine.

Stepping down from my soap box now.

Krispy

 2005/2/15 10:41





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