Hi Jesus is God,You quoted the following:What The LORD has been showing me in the last week is that the coming conference is right on target and right on time and That is why this topic is under attack and we need to consider the source of these attacks and know that it's a form of confirmation that the topic of the conference IS From GOD because of the sources of the oppositionAnd in particular I think it is very wrong of you to say this"and That is why this topic is under attack and we need to consider the source of these attacks "because you are really just saying who ever doesn't agree with the "persecution debate" are not on the side of God and are doing the devils work.That is very wrong if that's what you meant.All of the christians who gave their opinion love God,study the scripture, work for him and are concerned about these prophesys.Also your thesis that just because it is opposed means it from God is not scriptural in my opinion.The opposing view could say the same thing "we are standing up against this teaching for God type of thing"I have been consistent in my view about "an upcoming persecution prophesy" Yours Staff
Have we not already had Great Tribulations in the 20th Century. Not just Soldiers dying in battles with the enemy, There have been well over 200 million Democides in the 20th century.Democide: A term coined by political scientist R.J. Rummel, for 'the murder of any person or people by a governmente.g., genocide, politicide, and mass murder'From http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.CHAP1.HTM"Few are aware of the sheer democide that has been inflicted on our fellow human beings. That Hitler murdered millions of Jews is common knowledge. That he murdered overall near 21,000,000 Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, homosexuals, Frenchmen, Balts, Czechs, and others, is virtually unknown. Similarly, that Stalin murdered tens of millions is becoming generally appreciated; but that Stalin, Lenin, and their successors murdered almost 62,000,000 Soviet citizens and foreigners is little comprehended outside of the Soviet Union (where similar figures are now being widely published). Then there is Mao Tse-tung's China, Chiang Kai-shek's China, the militarist's Japan, Yahya Khan's Pakistan, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and the others who have murdered in the millions. Even those students of genocide who have tried to tabulate such killing around the world have grossly underestimated the toll. The best, most recent such accounting came up with no more than 16,000,000 killed in genocide and politicide since World War II.18 But this estimate does not even cover half of the some 35,000,000 people likely murdered by just the Communist Party of China from 1949 to 1987."Moreover, even the toll of war itself is not well understood. Many estimate that World War II, for example, killed 40,000,000 to 60,000,000 people. But the problem with such figures is that they include tens of millions killed in democide. Many war-time governments massacred civilians and foreigners, committed atrocities or genocide against them, executed them, and subjected them to reprisals. Aside from battle or military engagements, during the war the Nazis murdered around 20,000,000 civilians and prisoners of war, the Japanese 5,890,000, the Chinese Nationalists 5,907,000, the Chinese communists 250,000, the Nazi satellite Croatians 655,000, the Tito Partisans 600,000, and Stalin 13,053,000 (above the 20,000,000 war-dead and democide by the Nazis of Soviet Jews and Slavs). I also should mention the indiscriminate bombing of civilians by the Allies that killed hundreds of thousands, and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Most of these dead are usually included among the war-dead. But those killed in battle versus in democide form distinct conceptual and theoretical categories and should not be confused. That they have been consistently and sometimes intentionally confounded helps raise the toll during World War II to some 60,000,000 people, way above the estimated 15,000,000 killed in battle and military action. And that the almost universally accepted count of genocide during this period also is no more than "6,000,000" Jews, around 13 percent of the total war-time democide, has further muddled our research and thought." Another great tribulation began in South and Central America, and the Caribbean in the 16th Century. Christopher Columbus and his crew, landing on an island in the Bahamas on October 12, 1492, were the first Europeans to encounter the Taíno people. Columbus wrote:"They traded with us and gave us everything they had, with good will..they took great delight in pleasing us..They are very gentle and without knowledge of what is evil; nor do they murder or steal..Your highness may believe that in all the world there can be no better people ..They love their neighbours as themselves, and they have the sweetest talk in the world, and are gentle and always laughing."The slave trade: the story of the Atlantic slave trade, 1440-1870 Written by well respected Historian Hugh Thomas, Documents the the re-establihment of slavery by the Catholic Church via their issuance of 4 Papal Bulls between 1440 and 1520. which led to enslaving blacks who were kidnapped from Africa and sent to work as slaves for their Spanish and Porteguese Masters, as well as enslaving millions of native Americans.From Catholic priest Montesino in 1511 declared to the Spanish conquerors in America stated: "By what right and by what justice do you hold these Indians in such a cruel and horrible servitude? With what authority have you carried out such detestable wars against these people who were living in their meek and peaceful lands that you have consumed with deaths and ravages never heard of? How can you hold these peoples so oppressed and exhausted by not giving to them the food they need to eat, and by not healing their illnesses which are due to the excessive works you force upon them? Thus they die, or better said you kill them in order to acquire the precious gold every day! Do you care at all about letting them know God as their Creator
and fulfill their Sunday obligation? Are these people not human beings? Dont they have rational souls? Are you not obliged to love them as you love yourselves?"Bishop Bartoleme de Las Casas, published in 1542: "A Brief Account of the Devastation of the Indies."http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/20321/pg20321.htmlAlsohttp://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/bdorsey1/41docs/02-las.htmlIn 1516, a Spanish historian, Peter Martyr, reported that the Bahamas were "deserted," and that "a ship without a compass, chart, or guide, but only following the trail of dead Indians who had been thrown from the ships could find its way from the Bahamas to Hispanola." So how does the above relates to this thread? There have been many Great Tribulations that peoples generations before us already lived through.What shall we Christians do if we find ourselves is such a Tribulation?We will hold fast to the Gospel, and love one another, we will bless those who curse us, we will help and comfort those whom we can, and die valiantly, knowing our Spirit returns to our Lord.From the 'Lord of the Rings - Two Towers:Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this happened."Gandalf: So do all who see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."So, think about it and be prepared, what will you do?As for me, I agree with Mozart, when he wrote to his father in in 1787: "As death, strictly speaking, is the goal of our lives, I have for some years past been making myself so familiar with this truest and best friend of man that its aspect has not only ceased to appal me, but I find it very soothing and comforting! And I thank my God that he has vouchsafed me the happiness of an opportunity (you will understand me) to recognise it as the key to our true bliss. I never lie down to sleep without reflecting that (young as I am) [he was 31] I may perhaps not see another dayyet none of those who know me can say I am morose or melancholy in societyand I thank my Creator every day for this happiness and wish from the bottom of my heart that all my fellow men might share it."
ArtB wrote:Have we not already had Great Tribulations in the 20th Century.___I was not sure if you were asking this as an actual question or not :) The things you shared are indeed horrific and I do believe through out history we can go back and see many examples of wars, struggles, and plagues, disasters and the like but none of these events has ushered in the second coming of our LORD JESUS and so that is what I believe many who are sharing are speaking about.(this is just my thought though. I do not mean to speak for all) I do agree that the need for prayer, staying close to our LORD and keeping our eyes, hearts, and minds fixed on HIM is the answer to any trail or tribulations one goes through in their life.JESUS is always our answer and should be the motivator of our hearts.God Blessmaryjane
Hi Artb,I appreciate the history that you put forward. As someone who really likes history, I have read and studied all of the accounts that you have written of. And so, given everything that you have said, please consider what Jesus says about the times to come.............Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And of course this time the target will be Christians on a worldwide scale. Satan, knowing that his time is short in the context of Matt 24, will target every living genuine Christian on the planet. Some may think it preposterous that Christians will be targeted for death for no other reason than being Christians, yet, given recent history, just 60 short years ago, where Jewish people were targeted by a western power for no other reason than for being Jewish, those " some" would be spiritually , scripturally and historically naieve.And yet, even given all of that. the power that has been spoken of so far in this thread will dominate. The power of God working in and through His people. As this flood of evil pours forth from the bowels of hell, then God's Spirit will pour forth through His people and triumph over evil as Jesus triumphed on the cross. The same Spirit that allowed Algerius to write the letter highlighted in this thread will flood the souls of the saints. There is a glorious conclusion to the end times persecution, the retun of Jesus our Lord, the Lion of Judah..............bro Frank
Apollus wrote:"please consider what Jesus says about the times to come.............Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."Jesus's warnings were indeed grave and were fulfilled in the Jewish/Roman war leading up to 70 AD and the sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. The accounts of what went on during that time period are harrowing to say the least. I have found that very very few Christians have any idea how bad that period was. I was never taught anyhting about it in any church I ever attended and really only became aware of it in the past several years. Every Christians should educate themselves about what happened in that period of history. I am not saying that there may not be some possible future application but the primary thrust of Jesus's words related to the destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD. And thank goodness the believers did heed his warnings and fled the city before it was too late.
TMK writes........"Jesus's warnings were indeed grave and were fulfilled in the Jewish/Roman war leading up to 70 AD and the sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.""I am not saying that there may not be some possible future application but the primary thrust of Jesus's words related to the destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD"Here is the context of Jesus words in Matt 24.....Mat 24:3-4(3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?(4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.In chapter 24 Jesus is asked specifically about the end of the world and He starts of with a warning about being deceived. So, I out it to you TMK, that you have just outlined the Preterist position which is far from Christian orthodoxy. Are you a Preterist? Do you believe that 70ad was the end of the world? If not, how do you reconcile the question asked by the Disciples and the answer given by Jesus?Preterism............."There has historically been general agreement with non-preterists that the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy was written by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter Reformation. Moses Stuart noted that Alcasar's preterist interpretation was of considerable benefit to the Roman Catholic Church during its arguments with Protestants, and preterism has been described in modern eschatological commentary as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy."
I think we except historically the Jewish holocost happened. There are museums dedicated to it. So why are we debating the reality of believers in Christ being persecuted and dying for ChristSomeone please, I beg you correct me. I lead s conference call of intercessors where we pray for the persecuted around the world. So am I lying to the people on my prayer call about the death camps in N. Korea and the shipping containers in Eritrea.Are V.O.M., Compass Direct, Forum 18. even the U S State Dept. Not to mention the C.I.A. fact book. Are they all wrong in saying that Christians are being persecuted?I wonder because the objections being raised over upcoming persecution coming to Americs make me wonder if what I am reading is credible?If someone can show Mr that persecution is false. Then I will shut down my prayer call and repent of misleading people. And believe something mire credible like big foot.Bearmaster.
Bearmaster wrote:If someone can show Mr that persecution is false. Then I will shut down my prayer call and repent of misleading people. And believe something mire credible like big foot._________________If I may share something with you from the heart and I do so in love...why allow what another thinks to cause you to stumble even for a moment? Stand firm on what you know to be true, you shared your heart and gave the warning as the LORD has led you now stand back and allow the Holy Spirit to work. I say this in love and am speaking to myself as well it is not my job, or yours to force anyone to see what may come in the way of persecution it is only our job to be faithful to what the LORD is showing us. If those you share with do not see what you are sharing then leave it to the LORD to show them and commit to prayer on their behalf. Our job is to point others to CHRIST we can not force them to go to HIM though. Even JESUS did not force anyone. OF course persecution toward Christians is real and if you feel led dear brother to pray for those who are enduring even now then pray. GOD has given you this burden trust in HIM and walk it out.Pray with out stopping! If others do not see the things HE is showing you pray for them and humbly ask that they pray for you GOD will reveal HIMSELF to all that seek after HIM! Don't be disheartened and give the enemy room, but rather lift up others in prayer and love on them. This is not an argument or debate needing to be one, its about loving others enough to share with them(which you have) and then trusting in GOD to finish HIS work!Praying for you bearmaster and all of us that HIS will be done in our lives and no matter what comes at the end of the day we will remain standing firm and strong in HIM!!God blessmj
Bearmaster wrote:"So why are we debating the reality of believers in Christ being persecuted and dying for Christ?"Who here is suggesting any such thing? Certainly not me.I think Mary Jane missed your sarcasm. -------------------------------------------Appolus said: "Are you a preterist?"Wow, you make that sound like it is a dirty word. I know of extremely godly people who hold this position. It is not heresy-- hate to break it to you. No, I am not a preterist; i.e., I could not sit here and expound everything that a preterist believes. However, neither am I a 100% dispensationalist which by the way did not come into vogue until the mid 1800s. I believe that many of the prophecies in Rev and Mt 24 etc have already been fulfilled; but I also believe that some have not. The phrase "end of the world" can equally be translated "end of the age." That is how the NKJV and other translations have it. The destruction of Jersusalem and the temple system was indeed the end of an age.It is obvious that Jesus was talking, in major part, about the upcoming events in 70 AD. Because in Luke's version of this discourse, He says "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." And at Mt 24:34: "Assuredly, I say to you, **this generation** will by no means pass away till all these things take place." And it did; for that is precisely what happened during the siege by the Romans in 70 AD. It takes a lot of gyrations to suggest he really didnt mean "this generation" when he was talking to his disciples who were part of "this generation."I understand the sway that the dispensational end times view has in evangelicalism. Most evangelical pastors attended seminaries that teach this viewpoint. I never heard any alternative viewpoint in any evangelical church I ever attended, and really never expect to. And believe me I have taught in Bible studies the dispensational view of things. I mean I had the charts and everything. And I am not saying that this view is all wrong; i am just saying that there are other legitimate views of the end times that are not heretical. Too be dogmatic about Mt 24 primarily being about some yet future event is, in my view, not supported by scripture. And I want to reiterate that I have never even hinted at an argument that persecution is not coming to the western church. I believe that it very well may and probably will, although obviously I have no idea of when that may actually be. The other thread, as I have tried to explain, has nothing at all to do with that. Maybe only 2 people on the entire forum have realized this.
Hi TMK,I asked a question brother, if you " felt,' it was saying it was a dirty word, then that is an inference that is wrong, better just sticking to what is written. When you try and guess how someone is " feeling,' it usually turns a thread south.Now brother, I am going to ask you to read the whole of Chapter 24, not just a portion of it. You say that the persecutions that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 was undoubtedly fulfilled in 70ad? And yet in the very same chapter, perhaps even in the same breath Jesus says....... Mat 24:29-36(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:(33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.Now correct me if I am wrong brother, but did Jesus come back and gather His own? A text without context leads to a pre-text. The generation that sees these things will not pass away until Jesus returns, unless you practise some verbal gymnastics of your own, you cannot say that 70ad was the fulfillment of all of these things.One more thing TMK, you speak of Dispensationalism. What has this to do with post tribbers? Dispensationalism teaches of a pre-trib rapture...........bro Frank