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KingJimmy
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Charlotte, NC

 Re: Man Dies At Benny Hinn Crusade

Quote:

God heals today in answer to prayer, but He does not promise always to heal and there are no apostolic gifts of healing operative today.”



If there is no apostolic gifts of healing operative today, then Jesus Christ is dead.


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Jimmy H

 2005/2/12 11:02Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
If there is no apostolic gifts of healing operative today, then Jesus Christ is dead.


Jimmy
I'm not unsympathetic to what I think you are saying but this is a bit stark, would you expand it a little?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/12 12:42Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

Jimmy
I'm not unsympathetic to what I think you are saying but this is a bit stark, would you expand it a little?



The gifts of the Spirit are entirely based upon the heavenly life of Christ, and we as believers being part of that body which is alive from the grave. They are not something the apostles in themselves owned. To say that these gifts no longer are available on this side of glory is to say that Christ is dead. For the same life Christ has enjoyed 2,000 years ago is the same life Christ enjoys today, and the rest of His body with it.


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Jimmy H

 2005/2/12 12:48Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/11
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 Re: BH

Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

Brethren.

There are many threads if one were to do a search through this site on the antics of this man and his ministry. Many of us here have been affected by and through it. There are accounts told and untold of the harm being done. This regrettably is not the first time nor dare I say likely the last that we will hear of another victim fallen in this way.

More so, if I may say, the spiritual damage, the misleading and just the mere fact that this whole thing is built upon the wrong premise, the wrong foundation.

IRONMAN

Quote:
There are some out there with healing ministries (not sure who) but they get drowned out by the false healers as do other people who have certain gifts from God,



I don't think so. What is a 'healing ministry'?
And don't get me wrong, not an accusation and your "(not sure who)" is telling. Am not sure either, because where do we have any account of such a thing in scripture, even in 'principle'?

Did Jesus have a "healing ministry" as such?

We need to go further back of these things and get at the root. Who is exalted here? Is it truly the Lord? Is this what comes to mind when we think of these types of 'ministries'? Or is it someone else?

I refer back to the scripture above. There is something entirely missing from all of this as it is inverted, misapplied or relegated to the side line or as a add on. And that is just that this is a false gospel. It's what we can [i][b]get[/b][/i] out of God, not that we come as repentant sinners asking for forgiveness and then to be [i]healed[/i] of the plagues of our heart, the biggest that we have sinned against [b]Him[/b].
Did Jesus die to heal our body's, that will perish anyway? To make us "happy"?, "prosperous"? Ten Shekels and A Shirt coming into play in it's full force here and that is exactly what is being promoted at the root of it all. Humanism with Christian overtones.

It is just as absurd to think that no one gets healed anymore, oddly the greatest healing that can ever happen to anyone gets trampled underfoot by [i]mostly[/i] all this psychological manipulation and that is the miracle healing of a changed disposition. Let's not belittle the pains and physical ailments that many suffer from and some even get healed of, [i]if[/i] the Lord chooses to do so. But to buttress up a false hope and then underline it with a quasi, not always openly stated sense of the idea that it is because you lack 'faith' that you are not being healed is pure nonsense and destroying peoples ability to get at the heart of the matter.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: [b]but judge this rather[/b], that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

That sums up as well the whole issue of how this ought to be treated and reflects on:
Quote:
And is it your job in God's eyes to tear down others and talk bad about them? I believe that the information you are telling is being told by the Devil's own people.....so you can instead pray for Mr. Hinn and the dead person's loved ones that are in mourning if this account is true instead of sinning by talking bad about others.


That would surely be missing the point altogether. To go out of the way to tear some one down or to stay silent on the matter are the wrong options.

Facts are that people are being mislead, mis-feed and abused and on that we must not be silent. This is neither a witch hunt nor a 'there are some good things we can glean of it' situation.

I am just as sure that not only do a few people get saved or even healed of what ails them at one of these events, [b]despite[/b] all that happens there. That doesn't lend any credibility to it anymore than a drunk man in a bar coming to the consciousness realization that he is under judgment. That doesn't make the bar holy because of it.

Will not God acknowledge those who are truly repentant and seeking after Him? Not just what they can get out of it for themselves?

Listen to this cry and see if it doesn't reverberate within us:

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Act 20:28-31

This is what the issue is:

AgesofWar
Quote:
PS I fell away once, because in part I attended a church that taught the prosperity gospel and when I found out, I was heart broken and began to question the Word of God.


That is what brings the tears. Not from observation but by experience. It's redundant to say so, but I bought the T-Shirt and the tapes and the books, the whole 9 yards. After hearing the so called 'condemning voices',those 'judging' brothers, those few voices that had the gall to call these 'ministries' on the carpet, it rattled me. "How dare they say such things!" "Touch not the Lords annoint...." "Look at all the people being saved" But I thank God for them. It made me be a Berean and to go find out if these things 'were so'. And as I came to the realization that I had been duped by a false Gospel I came right up to that same line of falling away. Who to believe? It was a time of much confusion, I was broken hearted and beginning to question everything. Permanently etched in my mind was standing in the door way the night my wife came home from work and no longer able to keep this to myself, knowing I had to tell her the truth of what I had discovered. She loved these people and all that they promoted, more so than I as she had been primarily taught 'Christianity' through them. With tears I told her we had been duped, swallowed a lie and that this was all a fraud. Though there was some initial understanding, there would be many years of struggle to unlearn and sort through the half-truths and even that which was true mixed in to make it all one giant mess. To this day there is still residue that comes up out of it, especially when it comes to healing in her mind. It caused me ultimately to pull out of the church we were in when I could stand it no more.

Beloved, the issue is not one of judging but of getting at the truth of the matter. This is not the gospel. It is not. It is something else entirely, it may be a [i]form there of[/i] with bandages and attachments and 'Christian lingo', but it is still false. And suffice it to say that it is not just here alone in this particular construct, but even larger in the church as a whole. Will save that for another thread.

Would also state that there has to be some spiritual maturity in all of this. The opposite error is to come out from under a bad, heretical*
ministry and turn into a legalist, pouncing on every undotted "i" and leading yourself or others into a different form of bondage. Have that t-shirt as well...

*[b]Heretic
HER'ETIC, n.[/b]

1. A person under any religion, but particularly the christian, who holds and teaches opinions repugnant to the established faith, or that which is made the standard of orthodoxy. In strictness, among christians, a person who holds and avows religious opinions contrary to the doctrines of Scripture, the only rule of faith and practice.

2. Any one who maintains erroneous opinions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"There are people who think that God is only around to help us. We have a great utility God, they think. You pray, and He does this! You pray, and He does that! You pray, and He sends you money. You pray, and He gets you out of a jam. He’s not somebody you worship in speechless adoration, but He’s a utility God! And some on TV are exploiting that to the maximum."

-Leonard Ravenhill


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Mike Balog

 2005/2/12 12:55Profile
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 Re: They followeth not with us!

Quote:
I don't think so. What is a 'healing ministry'?
And don't get me wrong, not an accusation and your "(not sure who)" is telling. Am not sure either, because where do we have any account of such a thing in scripture, even in 'principle'?



I really have never watched Mr. Benny so I have no opinion of him either way (luckily), but I must say generally speaking, (not at all directed towards you brother Mike :-)), we Christians have more faith in the power of the Devil than we do the power of God. Back home (Africa) there are many healers and there is nothing fake about them, they can actually heal you. This a demonstration of demonic power being used to show the validity of fake religions. A person is healed by a false religion then all of a sudden, the religion is not false (to them). How is it that we do not believe that God can still heal and perform miracles through us? Every ministry has a different role to play.

1 Corinthians 12:1-11 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit;[u][b]to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit[/b][/u]; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Consider this:

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is [b]no man[/b] which shall do a miracle [b]in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[[/b]


We must be careful not to stone everyone who “followeth not with us” (I am not speaking of Mr. Benny here). I tend to support my brother who says, “There are some out there with healing ministries (not sure who) but they get drowned out by the false healers as do other people who have certain gifts from God,”. Listen to Mr. Ravenhill’s interview and here about the manifestations he speaks of, “people being lifted into the air and carried from one end of the room to the other under conviction of sin by the power of the Spirit” as he said, “I’ve seen people come out of wheel chairs and blind eyes opened after we prayed”. Just some thoughts…

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/12 15:46Profile
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 Ananias and Sapphira

I found this on another site some time ago...

"In 1989 I attended the Holiness Conference at the Vineyard Anaheim, then on Cerritos, and Leonard Ravenhill and Rick Joyner were among the speakers….I remember vividly the power of God’s conviction falling on the mass of people gathered when Leonard Ravenhill spoke….There I met a man from

New Zealand, who was a pastor there, and suddenly the conversation in a waiting line had turned to talking about the glory and Ananias and Sapphira…to which he explained how his church for one full year had prayed for the glory to come down. Then one Sunday it did….and 8 people dropped dead instantly…. just like Ananias and Sapphira ! I’ll never forget this man’s admonition to be careful what you pray for ! There is a deception we have in taking too lightly God’s presence, and His standard of holiness."

I am by no means trying to explain what happened to the man who died but God's power is the same yesterday today and for eternity...it is us who have lost the glory.


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/12 16:09Profile
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 Re:

Hi James,

Fortunate for you that you have been spared and that's not a swipe...

Just to clarify a bit. What is promoted and seen in one of these 'events' is of Mr. Hinn hovering over people, 'slaying them in the spirit' (the order is usually reversed actually) a lot of yelling and frankly anger, not always of the 'demons come out of him' sort, the 'authority' that he may be trying to convince someone he might have is theatrical at best. This is basically a show with himself as the main attraction. Worse yet is the manipulation that goes on. The slow repetitive strains of the 'Hallelujah' chorus playing over and over, talking about a half hour or more at a time, playing on peoples emotions, this is nothing short of hypnotism. Much, much more could be said.
Like the money plea's...


What I was driving at earlier is that to have a ministry that is centered on and around healing is not in and of itself wrong. There are all kinds of ministries that have certain focus's.

But if that is to take the focus off the place of Christ and His work, then what exactly is a 'ministry' doing?

And in this instance, the draw is always to 'come get healed'. That is the emphasis, with the prosperity thrown in for good measure, it certainly 'works' for him. The Lord is secondary no matter how much His name is being used. It's orchestrated like a rock band on tour. Staging, lights, the whole production. The Holy Spirit never fails to show up, he has Mr. Hinn's schedule to keep after all.

It is all a sham and a mockery. It's difficult to not let the emotions spill forth here. Peoples lives have been ruined because of this. Financial ruin. People who should be seeing a physician will neglect that to follow this man instead.
Spiritually, how many have turned from the faith that we never hear from? What of all those who don't get healed in one of his meetings? I mean the ones that don't have a specific enough problem to make a good showing for his TV program later on. Many are turned away. What of them? What of the ones that have had an emotional experience and now are confused because they 'think' they were healed and now...?

Have even heard him tout this incredible idea about 'how to not lose your healing'...
Lose it?

It's insanity and will state that it is a rare thing that anybody is truly being healed at all there.

Never seen a blind man see.

A deaf man hear (though he's tried to pull that one off)

Anyone grow a limb back.

It's really very simple. Proof.
There is none. No evidence has ever been produced to show anything that truly was a real healing.

[b]IF[/b] he has a true and real gift of healing than why on earth doesn't he go and start emptying the hospitals? Where's the compassion?
Instead he is bilking the unsuspecting of their money all in the name of Christianity. He owns his own private jet, surrounds himself with bodyguards (odd no? where's his 'faith'?) stays in expensive hotels on his followers dime...

Getting back to your comments. This is not a case where this applies:

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

A bit of commentary:

[b]Mar 9:40[/b] -
He that is not against us, is on our part - Or rather, Whosoever is not against You, is for You. Instead of ἡμων, us, I would read ὑμων, you, on the authority of ADSHV, upwards of forty others, Syriac, Armenian, Persic, Coptic, Ethiopic, Gothic, Slavonic, Vulgate, Itala, Victor, and Opt. This reading is more consistent with the context - He followed not us - well, he is not against You; and he who is not against you, in such a work, may be fairly presumed to be on your side.
There is a parallel case to this mentioned in Num_11:26-29, which, for the elucidation of this passage, I will transcribe. “The Spirit rested upon Eldad and Medad, and they prophesied in the camp. And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua, the servant of Moses, said, My lord Moses, forbid them! And Moses said unto him, Enviest Thou for My sake? Would God, that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his Spirit upon them.” The reader will easily observe that Joshua and John were of the same bigoted spirit; and that Jesus and Moses acted from the spirit of candour and benevolence. See the notes on Num_11:25-29 (note).

Adam Clarke

The emphasis is not on the man as much as it is on the attitude of Joshua and John. This doesn't butress the idea either that Mr. Hinn gets a free pass and tends to lend again to the 'touch not the Lords anointed'. Even if he portends to be on 'our side' that doesn't stop the argument that he is fraudulent. Because if any one is being healed there it is despite his efforts not because of them.

Besides that, what would it mean to be on the Lords side? Willing to lay down your life, to accept criticism and persecution?

Sigh, I just don't know of any other way to state these things, it is so grevious...

Quote:
we Christians have more faith in the power of the Devil than we do the power of God. Back home (Africa) there are many healers and there is nothing fake about them, they can actually heal you. This a demonstration of demonic power being used to show the validity of fake religions. A person is healed by a false religion then all of a sudden, the religion is not false (to them). How is it that we do not believe that God can still heal and perform miracles through us? Every ministry has a different role to play.



Brother, am not of a cessationist mindset in the least. But fake is fake and like all things in this walk we are supposed to be purveyors of truth. But I am a little unclear what you mean here in this. I don't doubt this at all. It's truly scriptural;

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Have listened to and watched some footage of a Hmong shaman from a missionary that was dealing with just these sort of things with people caught up in it. And this brother was anything but flippant about dealing with this realm, nor was he some kind of flamboyant personality. Sat transfixed on what he shared with us in a small group and he wouldn't allow it to get to far afield as to take the emphasis off what was in his mind the real spiritual battle; Living a Holy life.
Quote:
How is it that we do not believe that God can still heal and perform miracles through us?


That is not the argument here at all and maybe you are just directing it in general. But the muddiness is that by having this type of 'ministry' in the first place it seems you end up taking sides as it were. Just because what is being done is false doesn't negate anything that God can and will do as is His own prerogative. Nor by denouncing these circus performances do we necessarily go off the rails and not believe in a God who still heals, even physical ailments. Not in the least.

That Ravenhill quote prompted some more thought brother. Which might have more validity to it, a man who pours out his very life for the Gospel or one who is fleecing the flock? It's an issue of integrity and character and would take Ravenhills word for it based on that alone.


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Mike Balog

 2005/2/12 18:05Profile
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 And shall shew signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Oh, just to clarify…these “healers/witchdoctors” (N’anga) are certainly not Christian and the fee for their work is often a large sum of money or involves breaking the law either of man or of God. It is demonic without a doubt. They cast spells and curses. Having been exposed to Hollywood here, even I can feel how ridiculous that sounds but believe me, it is very real. That was not the point (actually the point was not clear from that) at all though, the point was, it is easier for people to accept that the powers of darkness can manifest this kind of power than it is for them to believe in the power of God. As you rightly discerned, this is a general statement.

Quote:
That Ravenhill quote prompted some more thought brother. Which might have more validity to it, a man who pours out his very life for the Gospel or one who is fleecing the flock? It's an issue of integrity and character and would take Ravenhills word for it based on that alone.



I know nothing of Mr. Hinn, but based on what I know of you I willing to accept that there is something disturbingly false about him… It's an issue of integrity and character

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/12 19:58Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

IF he has a true and real gift of healing than why on earth doesn't he go and start emptying the hospitals? Where's the compassion?



Jesus never emptied out hospitals. Sometimes, such as at the pool in Bethesda, he would be surrounded by crowds of sick people, yet sometimes would just heal one. The gift is just that... it's not available to be used anytime one wants to.


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Jimmy H

 2005/2/12 21:03Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
"There are people who think that God is only around to help us. We have a great utility God, they think. You pray, and He does this! You pray, and He does that! You pray, and He sends you money. You pray, and He gets you out of a jam. He’s not somebody you worship in speechless adoration, but He’s a utility God! And some on TV are exploiting that to the maximum."
-Leonard Ravenhill


What a quote brother Mike!! Our God is alive and definetly healing and restoring people in our day. It is sad though how many people are trying to captilize on this truth for their [b]own[/b] means.


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 2005/2/12 21:13Profile





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