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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Krautfrau

krautfrau wrote "Good post Colin and I would like to add that the second work requires our faith that the work was done and we HAVE been made free from sin on the cross, that our flesh was crucified two thousand years ago, in order for it to be made a reality for us, and if we believe that we must struggle against sin for all of our Christian lives then we will. If we twist the words of scripture then we will get what we expect."

excellent!!!

 2012/6/16 6:50Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 D.M. Lloyd Jones

D.M. Lloyd Jones,Commentary on Romans,Zondervan,1980,pp 251,252
All the scripture in their accounts and descriptions of the regenerate man teach the exact opposite of what we find here in Romans 7.But we must go further.I suggest that to interpet Romans 7 in terms of the fully regenerate man-Paul at his best-is indeed to place the regenerate man at his best in an inferior position to the saints of God under old testament teaching...
'To appoint unto them that mourn in zion,to give them beauty for ashes,the oil of joy for mourning,the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness.' In such words Isaiah had already answered Romans 7 nearly eight centuries beforehand. These are the blessings of the gospel dispensation-beauty,joy,praise! It is the very antithesis of 'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?'
"Indeed, I do not hesitate to say that if you interpret Romans 7 as referring to the regenerate man you are really excluding the doctrine of sanctification altogether.Or if not that, It certainly excludes the possibility of any growth in sanctification... So it comes to this,that the more Christian a man becomes the more miserable he becomes,and the highest point he reaches will mark the greatest depth of his misery..."

 2012/6/16 10:43Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Romans 7

Quote:
Johan2012 says: Romans 7 is not the normal Christian Life but a Christian life in bondage where "self" is stil on the throne. Romans 8 describes a life of freedom where "self" is delt with and where your soul is under the leading of the Spirit.



The first comment agreed with the statement that Rom. 7 deals with the sinner under the law.

Actually, I see a bit of both in here, and they are not so unrelated. What I do not see in any sense is the idea that Rom. 7 describes a Christian's struggle. This idea is prohibited by context.

Paul says pretty emphatically that he is writing about trying to keep the law of God. Verses 1 through 12 or so sets the stage for the remainder of the thought. But we must remember that the law was weak in that it had to be kept by sheer will of the flesh of man. Look at Rom 7:14 which leads to Rom 8:3.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

However, the same wretchedness, the same difficulty will come to us as believers if we try to relate to God in our flesh. God, am I good enough yet? Am I holy enough yet? Have I done enough to earn Your approval and forgiveness? Few of us would admit to this attitude, but we have all, at some point, been tempted to try to relate to God based on our own performance rather than on the basis of the sacrifice of Christ and our having a born again spirit.



_________________
Travis

 2012/6/16 19:56Profile









 Re: Romans 7

Romans Seven is a scary chapter with a happy ending.

It tells me that I can't live this Christian life at all.

Thus the misery of trying and failing becomes routine until we learn that it's Christ in us that is our hope of ever doing anything for God.

The process of giving up and letting God is a long one. Few actually KNOW that they are dead to sin and alive unto God. And when they know it they are alive in ways that we have never come to know as yet. They are the power of God in Christ Jesus. They are as if Christ was walking this earth once again. A pipe dream for many of us of ever becoming but it's not impossible.

The more that I try to put my hand to do good, the whole of the law comes against me. Why? Because I have not recognized that I am dead. There is no need to try to do any good, goodness should spill out of me naturally from the source of God. The scriptures tells me that I am dead, what is alive is the New Man, Christ and my union with Him. We both died together, went down into the grave together and came up out of the ground together as one new man, no longer two but one.

So when I try to do good from the standpoint that "I must do good because I am a Christian", evil is present with me. Why? Because the works are already done. There is nothing more that I can do to make myself look good in the eyes of God and man. We are righteous by faith not by anything that we do. If any goodness comes out of me, it's not me that doeth it, but the Christ that is in me, He doeth the work.

 2012/6/16 20:42
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re: D.M. Lloyd Jones

Quote: "Indeed, I do not hesitate to say that if you interpret Romans 7 as referring to the regenerate man you are really excluding the doctrine of sanctification altogether.Or if not that, It certainly excludes the possibility of any growth in sanctification...

Edited to add "The Deeper Christian Life by Andrew Murray"

"And Peter went out and wept bitterly." -Luke 22:62.

These words indicate the turning point in the life of Peter,-a crisis. There is often a question about the life of holiness. Do you grow into it? or do you come into it be a crisis suddenly? Peter has been growing for three years under the training of Christ, but he had grown terribly downward, for the end of his growing was, he denied Jesus. And then there came a crisis. After the crisis he was a changed man, and then he began to grow aright. We must indeed grow in grace, but before we can grow in grace we must be put right.

You know what the two halves of the life of Peter were. In God's Word we read very often about the difference between the carnal and the spiritual Christian. The word "carnal" comes from the Latin word for flesh. In Romans viii, and in Gal. v., we are taught that the flesh and the Spirit of God are the two opposing powers by which we are dominated or ruled, and we are taught that a true believer may allow himself to be ruled by the flesh. That is what Paul writes to the Corinthians. In the 3rd chapter, the first four verses, he says, four times to them, "You are carnal, and not spiritual." And just so a believer can allow the flesh to have so much power over him that becomes "carnal." Every object is named according to its most prominent characteristic. If a man is a babe in Christ and has a little of the Holy Spirit and a great deal of the flesh, he is called carnal, for the flesh is his chief mark. If he gives way, as the Corinthians did, to strife, temper, division, and envy, he is a carnal Christian. He is a Christian, but a carnal one. But if he gives himself over entirely to the Holy Spirit so that He (the Holy Spirit) can deliver from the temper, the envy, and the strife, by breathing a heavenly disposition; and can mortify the deeds of the body; then God's Word calls him a "spiritual" man, a true spiritual Christian.

Now, these two styles are remarkably illustrated in the life of Peter. The text is the crisis and turning point at which he begins to pass over from the one side to the other.

The message that I want to bring to you is this: That the great majority of Christians, alas, are not spiritual men, and that they may become spiritual men by the grace of God. I want to come to all who are perhaps hungering and longing for the better life, and asking what is wrong that you are without it, to point out that what is wrong is just one thing,-allowing the flesh to rule in you, and trusting in the power of the flesh to make you good.

There is a better life, a life in the power of the Holy Spirit. Then, I want to tell you a third thing. The first thing is important, take care of the carnal life, and confess if you are in it. The second truth is very blessed, there is a spiritual life; believe that it is a possibility. But the third truth is the most important,-You can be one step get out of the carnal into the spiritual state. May God reveal it to you now through the story of the Apostle Peter!

Look at him, first of all, in the carnal state. What are the marks of the carnal state in him? Self-will, self-pleasing, self-confidence. Just remember, when Christ said to the disciples at Caesarea Philippi, "The Son of Man must be crucified," Peter said to Him, "Lord, that can never be!" And Christ had to say to him, "Get thee behind Me, Satan!" Dear reader, what an awful thing for Peter! He could not understand what a suffering Christ was. And Peter was so self-willed and self-confident that he dared to contradict and to rebuke Christ! Just think of it! Then, you remember, how Peter and the other disciples, were more than once quarreling as to who was to be the chief-self-exaltation, self-pleasing;-every one wanted the chief seat in the Kingdom of God. Then again, remember the last night, when Christ warned Peter that Satan had desired to sift him and that he would deny Him; and Peter said twice over, "Lord, if they all deny Thee, I am ready to go to prison and to death." What self-confidence! He was sure that his heart was right. He loved Jesus, but he trusted himself. "I will never deny my Lord.! Don't you see the whole of that life of Peter is carnal confidence in himself. In his carnal pride, in his carnal unlovingness, in the carnal liberty he took in contradicting Jesus, it was all just the life of the flesh. Peter loved Jesus. God had by the Holy Spirit, taught him. Christ had said, "Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven." God had taught him that Christ was the Son of God; but with all that, Peter was just under the power of the flesh; and that is why Christ said at Gethsemane, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."-"You are under the power of the flesh, you cannot watch with Me." Dear reader, what did it all lead to? The flesh led not only to the sins I have mentioned, but last of all to the saddest of things, to Peter's actual denial of Jesus. Three times over he told the lie; and once with an oath, "I know not the man." He denied his blessed Lord. That is what it comes to with the life of the flesh. That is Peter.

Now, look in the second place at Peter after he became a spiritual man. Christ had taught Peter a great deal. I think, if you count carefully, you will find some seven or eight times, Christ had spoken to the disciples about humility; He had taken a little child and set him in the midst of them; He had said, "He that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted; He had said that three or four times; He had at the last supper washed their feet; but all had not taught Peter humility. All Christ's instructions were in vain. Remember that now. A man who is not spiritual, though he may read his Bible, though he may study God's Word, cannot conquer sin, because he is not living the life of the Holy Spirit. God has so ordered it, that man cannot live a right Christian life unless he is full of the Holy Ghost. Do you wonder at what I say? Have you been accustomed to think,-"Full of the Holy Ghost, that is what the Apostles had to be on the day of Pentecost; that is what the martyrs and the ministers had to be; but for every man to be full of the Holy Ghost, that is too high"? I tell you solemnly, unless you believe that, you will never become thorough-going Christians. I must be full of the Holy Spirit if I am to be a whole-hearted Christian.

Then, note what change took place in Peter. The Lord Jesus led him up to Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came from heaven upon him, and what took place? The old Peter was gone, and he was a new Peter. Just read his epistle, and note the keynote of the epistle. "Through suffering to glory." Peter, who had said, "Of course, Lord, you never can suffer, or be crucified;" Peter, who, to save himself suffering or shame, had denied Christ,-Peter becomes so changed that when he writes his epistle the chief thought is the very thought of Christ, "Suffering is the way to glory." Do you not see that the Holy Spirit had changed Peter?

And look at other aspects. Look at Peter. He was so weak that a woman could frighten him into denying Christ; but when the Holy Spirit came he was bold, bold, bold to confess his Lord at any cost, was ready to go to prison and to death, for Christ's sake. The Holy Spirit had changed the man. Look at his views of Divine truth. He could not understand what Christ taught him, he could not take it in. It was impossible before the death of Christ; but on the day of Pentecost how he is able to expound the word of God as a spiritual man! I tell you, beloved, when the Holy Ghost comes upon a man he becomes a spiritual man, and instead of denying his Lord he denies himself, just remember that. In the sixteenth chapter of Matthew when Peter had said, "Lord, be it far from Thee, this shall never happen that Thou shalt be crucified," Christ said to Him: "Peter, not only will I be crucified, but you will have to be crucified too. If any man is to be My disciple, let him take up his cross to die upon it, let him deny himself, and let him follow Me." How did Peter obey that command? He went and denied Jesus! As long as a man, a Christian, is under the power of the flesh, he is continually denying Jesus. You always must do one of the two, you must deny self or you must deny Jesus, and, alas, Peter denied his Lord rather than deny himself. On the other hand, when the Holy Spirit came upon him, he could not deny his Lord, but he could deny himself, and he praised God for the privilege of suffering for Christ.

Now, how did the change come about? The words of my text tell us,-"And Peter went out and wept bitterly." What does that mean? It means this, that the Lord led Peter to come to the end of himself, to see what was in his heart, and with his self-confidence to fall into the very deepest sin that a child of God could be guilty of;-publicly, with an oath, to deny his Lord Jesus! When Peter stood there in that great sin, the loving Jesus looked upon him, and that look, full of loving reproach, loving pity, pierced like an arrow through the heart of Peter, and he went out and wept bitterly. Praise God, that was the end of self-confident Peter! Praise God, that was the turning point of his life! He went out with a shame that no tongue can express. He woke up as out of a dream to the terrible reality "I have helped to crucify the blessed Son of God." No man can fathom what Peter must have passed through that Friday, Saturday and Sunday morning. But, blessed be God, on that Sunday Jesus revealed Himself to Peter, we know not how, but "He was seen of Simon;" then in the evening He came to him with the other disciples and breathed peace, and the Holy Spirit upon him; and then, later on, you know how the Lord asked him, "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?"-three times, until Peter was sorrowful, and said, "Lord, thou knowest all things, thou knowest that I love thee." What was it that wrought the transition from the love of the flesh to the love of the Spirit? I tell you, that was the beginning,-"Peter went out and wept bitterly," with a broken heart, with a heart that would give anything to show its love to Jesus. With a heart that had learned to give up all self-confidence, Peter was prepared for the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

And, now, you can easily see the application of this story. Are there not many just living the life of Peter, of the self-confident Peter as he was? Are there not many who are mourning under the consciousness, "I am so unfaithful to my Lord, I have no power against the flesh, I cannot conquer my temper, I give way just like Peter to the fear of man, of company, for people can influence me and make me do things I do not want to do, and I have no power to resist them? Circumstances get the mastery over me, and I then say and do things that I am ashamed of."? Is there not more than one, who, in answer to the question, "Are you living as a man filled with the Spirit, devoted to Jesus, following Him, fully giving up all for Him?"-must say with sorrow, "God knows I am not. Alas, my heart knows it."? You say it, and I come, and I press you with the question, Is not your position, and your character, and your conduct, just like that of Peter? Like Peter, you love Jesus, like Peter you know He is the Christ of God, like Peter you are very zealous in working for Him. Peter had cast out devils in His name, and had preached the gospel, and had healed the sick. Like Peter you have tried to work for Jesus; but, oh! under it all, isn't there something that comes up continually? Oh, Christian, what is it? I pray, and I try, and I do long to live a holy life, but the flesh is too strong, and sin gets the better of me, and continually I am pleasing self instead of denying it, and denying Jesus instead of pleasing Him. Come, all who are willing to make that confession, and let me ask you to look quietly at the other life that is possible for you.

Just as the Lord Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to Peter, He is willing to give the Holy Spirit to you. Are you willing to receive Him? Are you willing to give up yourself entirely as an empty, helpless vessel, to receive the power of the Holy Spirit, to live, to dwell, and to work in you every day? Dear believer, God has prepared such a beautiful and such a blessed life for every one of us, and God as a Father is waiting to see why you will not come to Him and let Him fill you with the Holy Ghost. Are you willing for it? I am sure some are. There are some who have said often, "O God, why can't I live that life?-Why can't I live every hour of unbroken fellowship with God?-Why can't I enjoy what my Father has given me, all the riches of His grace? It is for me He gave it, and why can't I enjoy it?" There are those who say, "Why can't I abide in Christ every day, and every hour, and every moment?-why can't I have the light of my Father's love filling my heart all the day long? Tell me, servant of God, what can help me?"

I can tell you one thing that will help you. What helped Peter? "Peter went out and wept bitterly." It must come with us to a conviction of sin; it must come with us to a real downright earnest repentance, or we never can get into the better life. We must stop complaining and confessing, "Yes, my life is not what it should be, and I will try to do better." That won't help you. What will help you? This,-that you go down in despair to lie at the feet of Jesus, and that you begin with a very real and bitter shame to make confession, "Lord Jesus, have compassion upon me! For these many years I have been a Christian, but there are so many sins from which I have not cleansed myself,-temper, pride, jealousy, envy, sharp words, unkind judgments, unforgiving thoughts." One must say, "There is a friend whom I never have forgiven for what he has said." Another must say, "There is an enemy whom I dislike, I cannot say that I can love him." Another must say, "There are things in my business that I would not like brought out into the light of man." Another must say, "I am led captive by the law of sin and death." Oh, Christians, come and make confession with shame and say, "I have been bought with the Blood, I have been washed with the Blood, but just think of what a life I have been living! I am ashamed of it." Bow before God and ask Him by the Holy Spirit to make you more deeply ashamed, and to work in you that Divine contrition. I pray you take the step at once. "Peter went out and wept bitterly," and that was his salvation; yes, that was the turning point of his life. And shall we not fall upon our faces before God, and make confession, and get down on our knees under the burden of the terrible load, and say, "I know I am a believer, but I am not living as I should to the glory of my God. I am under the power of the flesh and all the self-confidence, and self-will, and self-pleasing that marks my life."

Dear Christians, do you not long to be brought nigh unto God? Would you not give anything to walk in close fellowship with Jesus every day? Would you not count it a pearl of great price to have the light and love of God shining in you all the day? Oh, come and fall down and make confession of sin; and, if you will do it, Jesus will come and meet you and He will ask you, "Lovest thou Me?" And, if you say, "Yes, Lord," very quickly He will ask again, "Lovest thou Me?"-and if you say, "Yes, Lord," again, He will ask a third time, "Lovest thou Me?"-and your heart will be filled with an unutterable sadness, and your heart will get still more broken down and bruised by the question, and you will say, "Lord, I have not lived as I should, but still I love Thee and I give myself to Thee." Oh, beloved may God give us grace now, that, with Peter, we may go out, and, if need be, weep bitterly. If we do not weep bitterly,-we are not going to force tears-shall we not sigh very deeply, and bow very humbly, and cry very earnestly, "O God, reveal to me the carnal life in which I have been living: reveal to me what has been hindering me from having my life full of the Holy Ghost"? Shall we not cry, "Lord, break my heart into utter self-despair, and, oh! bring me in helplessness to wait for the Divine power, for the power of the Holy Ghost, to take possession and to fill me with a new life given all to Jesus?"


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/6/18 9:13Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Romans 7 is NOT the Normal Christian Life. It is about a person who is not "In Christ" but knows what is right and wrong (the Law).

Paul uses an analogy of a marriage. A wife cannot be released from the marriage unless the husband dies and vice versa, the husband cannot be released unless the wife dies. Otherwise, adultery will be committed from the one that seeks release from the marriage apart from their spouse dying.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man AS LONG AS HE LIVETH?

Here comes the analogy:

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Conclusion:
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Back to the LAW:
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Do you see what just happened?

Let me lay it out for you.

In the Analogy of the man being married to the LAW, the LAW will not die.
1) Jesus said the Law will not pass away
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So, if the LAW WILL NOT DIE that mean in order for us to get free from the law (not be under it anymore, under it's condemnation), WE MUST DIE!!

Back to Romans 7:4
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

That's right. In God's glorious and wonderful plan of salvation, He released us from the LAW which cannot save, cannot give life, cannot purify the heart. It only serves to judge and condemn. How did He release us? Through His death and ours (being born-again).

We are now free to Marry Jesus Christ. We are set free from the Law so we will not be committing spiritual adultery if we give our heart to Jesus.

Look at Romans 6:3 and 6:4.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

You have been raised a new creature in Christ and are now subject only to the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

We have been set free from the law of sin and death.

So, if you have truly been born-again, your old man was crucified and died that the body of sin might be destroyed and the one that died is now free from sin.

So, 1) you are free from sin

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

And, number 2) since you died, you are no longer under the law but under grace.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under grace.

Here Paul tells us again, we are NOT UNDER THE LAW.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under grace? God forbid.

And Paul tells us once more we "are free from sin".
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

So, we see two things took place when you died in Christ.
1) You were freed from Sin
2) You were freed from the Law.

We have been delivered from the Law.
Rom 7:6 But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

How were we DELIVERED? Through Death, Crucifixion. Buried with Him in Baptism.

If I understood this years ago, I would have escaped a lot of grief from myself.

When talking to Sabbitarians, Hebrew Roots people, and anyone that wants to bring me under the law, I just show them what I just showed you. I don't argue about the Sabbath, or was the 4th commandment ceremonial or moral law or not. I don't try to make a case for Saturday or Sunday being the Sabbath.

And here is another scripture that links to this "death" with Christ setting us free.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

So, since you are dead to the law, continue to walk in His grace.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.


Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Can you shout AMEN!! This is exciting stuff.

The tablets of stone were for stony hearts and could never purify one's heart. The Law only brings the knowledge of sin though many try to follow it, yet can only give outward compliance and not even perfectly.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit within you as you stay in Christ (abide in Christ, walk after the Spirit not the flesh), to purify your hearts and conform you to the image of Christ and to cause you to lay down your life for others.

1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

So, NO, Romans 7 is not the Christian life. Romans 8 IS!!

Regarding FRUIT.

The Law cannot bring forth fruit unto life.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But the Holy Spirit can AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAW!
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.

ALRIGHT, YOU CAN JUMP UP AND DOWN AND PRAISE THE LORD NOW. I'M DOING IT WITH YOU. WE HAVE BEEN CALLED INTO THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY. THERE ARE NO, NADA, ZILCH, ZIP LAWS THAT THE CHRISTIAN IS UNDER EXCEPT THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS.

NEXT TIME SOMEONE WANTS TO PUT YOU UNDER THEIR LITTLE PET LAW, JUST TELL THEM THE OLD PERSON THAT WAS SUBJECT TO LAWS EXPIRED.

:-)

Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

Pilgrim

 2012/6/18 13:22Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: So, if you have truly been born-again, your old man was crucified and died that the body of sin might be destroyed and the one that died is now free from sin.

Testimony saying something slightly different… God’s program for dealing with the old man is quite distinct from the forgiveness of sin.

Now God made this vivid to me personally many years ago now. I was for about eight years the pastor of a small Pentecostal congregation in the center of London, England. And some people who know me today would find it hard to believe this, but we conducted open air services three times every week in the center of London at a place that’s known as Speaker’s Corner, Marble Arch. And that was where we got our fish. We went out and fished for sinners, brought them in. And we saw over the years hundreds of sinners saved through those meetings at Speaker’s Corner. 
But one night during this period I had a very vivid dream. And in my dream I saw a typical open air meeting. A circle of people standing around and a man in the middle preaching. And as I watched the man and listened to him I said to myself, “What he’s preaching is pretty good.” But there was something I didn’t like about the man. It was like he was hunchbacked and he had a club foot and altogether he looked crooked. So I woke up and I thought, “I wonder what that meant,” and dismissed it. But about two weeks later I had the same dream again. So this time I said to myself, “God must be trying to tell me something. I wonder who the man is?” And it was like the Holy Spirit said to me what Nathan said to David, “thou art the man.” 
And it opened up to me a completely new aspect of salvation. I was soundly saved by most standards, baptized in the Spirit, serving the Lord, but there was something in me that was crooked and unacceptable to God. It was the old man. I didn’t have any gospel understanding of God’s program for the old man. I had to find my way through these things. 
Well, about the same time Easter was coming on and because of the Easter season somehow I had in my mind a mental image of the hill of Golgotha [or Calvary] and the three crosses on it. But the middle cross was much taller than the other two. And it was like the Holy Spirit put me through an examination. He said, “Now tell me, for whom was the middle cross made?” But it was as if he said, “Be careful before you answer.” So I stopped and thought and I said, “It was made for Barabbas.” And he said, “That’s right.” Because it really was not made for Jesus. Do you understand? Barabbas was due to be executed. But he was released at the last moment, Jesus took his place. So then he said, “But Jesus took the place of Barabbas.” I said, “That’s right.” Then the Holy Spirit said, “But I thought Jesus took your place?” I said, “Yes, that’s right.” Then he said, “You must be Barabbas.” 
And at that point I saw it. I never try to argue with people about that, it’s a revelation. But I saw that I was the criminal for whom the cross was made. It was exactly to my measure. It was appropriate for me. But Jesus took my place.

That made it so vivid to me, God’s program for dealing with the old man. This is quite distinct from the forgiveness of sin. The forgiveness of sins is wonderful but you’re never going to have a life of victory or real fruitfulness as long as that old rebel is still alive inside you. God’s provision is the execution of the rebel. God’s mercy is the execution took place when Jesus died.

http://www.dpmuk.org/Mobile/default.aspx?article_id=109310


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/6/18 18:35Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Yes, the execution of the criminal! Very vivid dream.

And we must leave him DEAD.

But, is it possible that we only look like a hunchback with clubbed feet when we allow sin to have dominion over us once again?
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Because when you are servant of Righteousness you look whole and complete. We are free from sin so where is the deformity?
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

If your old man was crucified and died and was buried in baptism with Christ, then let him stay in the grave.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Maybe Colin, the Lord was showing you that you were beginning to dig the old man up from the grave (sin) and He wanted you to leave him in there.

We don't have to drag a grotesque old man around with us. We have been freed from him.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If that old man tries to come out of the grave, put him off of you. The Bible says the old man should not be ON YOU.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have PT OFF THE OLD MAN with his deeds;

Eph 4:22 That ye PUT OFF concerning the former conversation THE OLD MAN, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

But, I do know what you mean and I'm not criticizing. I have dug up the old grotesque, deformed man myself and it feels like what you described. And I know what it feels like to "put him off" and after I do that, I don't sense myself looking like a hunchback anymore (in the spirit).

Pilgrim

 2012/6/18 19:32Profile





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