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 Re:

Quote:
I'm just not in the habit of bringing up past sins about people that are under the blood. If God casts a sin behind His back, I have no plans to go and examine it.



The sin that got him in trouble isnt the one that we're concerned about. It's the rebellion and refusal to follow scripture in regards to the effects of that sin. Thats what matters now.

Krispy

 2012/6/7 10:08









 Re:

Quote:
Do you have any specific verses in mind that we can examine to determine the counsel of God in this matter?



Start with Titus chapter 1, and 1 Timothy chapter 3...

Krispy

 2012/6/7 10:12
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

It is worth noting that view of the Cross being essential to understanding how Christ freed us from Sin (the dynamic) is not novel. In fact it is a key point Ron Bailey (philologos) brings out in his new book, "The Better Covenant." Christ took Sin down into death setting all free from it that are were in Adam, but are now in Christ. Very powerful thing to consider.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 10:17Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Start with Titus chapter 1, and 1 Timothy chapter 3...



I'm familiar with these passages. What passage suggests that if a man commits a sin of the flesh, he is disqualified from ministry for life? Does not 1 John 1:9 apply to ministers? And if there is no distinction between laity and clergy, wherein do we withhold forgiveness and restoration from any saint?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 10:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I believe he has moved beyond all the sins of the past.

Don't lie brother, you do not believe this at all.

If you truly believed that then you wouldn't have said the other, "according to the Bible he is no longer qualified to be a pastor or shepherd".

If you stepped out on your wife and had relations with another woman. Then you went and told your wife about it and told her everything and cried for her to forgive you and she forgives you, do you stop being her husband?

Your treating him as if he is not forgiven.

What if your wife says, "I'll forgive you but I am going to divorce you anyway". She did not forgive you. By saying she will divorce you she is saying she did not forgive you.

Taking Pauls words and creating a law (God forbid) and now the law says that he can't be in ministry. And yet David under the Old Testament law, similitudes of examples and we under better promises, has more mercy under that old system than we do. He committed Adultery, Schemed and Murdered and God does not take away from him being King and being a Shepherd. According to the law, David and Bathsheba would have been stoned and his house would have been a manure pile. But God spared him, spared him from the curse of the law. I wonder if God under new management can do the same today?

If mercy can rewrite David, surely under this covenant God can restore a man's ministry.

The prodigal son returned and a robe, shoes and a ring was given to him having been in the pigpen of sin, sex and the like. How do we know that the prodigal wasn't a preacher? But here God is restoring everything to him, the robe of righteousness to be in His house, the ring of authority and the shoes to preach the gospel.

No it doesn't say the prodigal went out and preached, but that is what the robe, ring and shoes denote.

 2012/6/7 10:26









 Re:

Quote:
Don't lie brother, you do not believe this at all.



No, I give him the benefit of the doubt that he has turned his back on THAT sin.

But to answer you and RobertW... he does not have a good reputation among those outside the church. He has not been faithful to his wife (husband of one wife)... etc.

I can believe that he has repented of the sin that got him in trouble, and still be in rebellion regarding the authority of the church to administer church discipline.

Sorry to break it to you, brother, but elders/pastors/teachers ARE held to a higher level of accountability, and Paul makes that clear and explains why.

If you dont like what I am saying, your argument is not with me... it's with scripture.

All I will do from this point forward it point you to the scriptures, so I will bow out now. Do not see this as me not able to respond to whatever is posted after this... I've simply said all that there is to be said on this topic.

Krispy

 2012/6/7 10:55
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,i am forced for your benefit to disclose what really happened to bro. swaggart so you will not fall the way he did.there was a pastor of a large ag church in new orleans who sinned with another pastors wife while counseling them for their shaky marriage. he confessed his sin to brother swaggart and was invited by bro.s to come to baton rouge for a season of repentance. the next thing you know bro. swaggart publicly discloses this mans sin. a few mounths later , the son of the accused preacher was doing his once a week volanteer ride with the jeff. parish sherrifs dept. and saw brother swaggart enter the texas motel on airline hwy. he called his dad and his dad came and took pictures. watch out what you say about someone .judge not lest ye be judged in the same manner.jimp

 2012/6/7 12:24Profile









 Re:

jimp... we've said nothing here that isnt a matter of public record. We've disclosed no sin that hasnt already been discussed at length for 2 decades now.

It's a matter of record that he circumvented church discipline to get back into the pulpit as soon as possible.

All we're saying is that those things should give us pause about his role as a minister.

And yes, scripture does command us to judge. Twist not scripture lest ye be like the devil... as Paul Washer says.

Krispy

 2012/6/7 12:35
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, we are never to krino.but are to daikrino and anakrino. do a word study.jimp

 2012/6/7 12:45Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

This issue has never been whether the man sinned. The issue is whether or not that a man having sinned and having shown evidence of repentance, ought to be restored in ministry. Peter denied Christ and swore and yet Jesus restored him. The pastorals have the present active behavior of the potential leader in view; not their past. How could Paul possibly be an apostle after forcing people to blaspheme? He was the chief of sinners and yet obtained mercy of the Lord to such a grand ministry. God used his failure to prod him to search the scriptures and through revelation saw the Gospel of Christ in a way no one else did. How could a killer write the greatest chapter of love? That's an oxymoron. It's the transforming power of the Gospel.

Paul tells us in Galatians 6:1, Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. There are always consequences for sin, but restoration should always be our goal. Our key words here are 'spiritual' and 'meekness'. We all know (if we consider ourselves) that we are capable of falling into sin. That ought to show us our need to show mercy to others.

We can throw a person a life preserver or an anchor when they fall. If they will repent in a way that God can believe them, He will use them again. This is what Psalm 51 is about. It is written also for our learning. Can God remake the clay another vessel? Indeed He can and He will. Certainly the devil believes one shot- one kill, but not God. He is moving in resurrection power. And if I might so say the guy who falls and gets back up is in a better position to be used of God than the ones sitting around pretending they have no sin. Why? Because their actions are an obstacle for people coming clean before God with their own sins or to seek help.

When we get to the place that Christians and ministers fear seeking help in times of struggle, wondering who will publish their failures, rather than seeking to bring about repentance, restoration and accountability we are in a serious fix. What did David say?

And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man. (1 Chron. 21:13)

Why? Because God forgives and casts the sin behind His back. Men just keep throwing it in your face until you despair even of life.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 13:11Profile





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