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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1997
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Jimmy Swaggart is often criticised for his focus on the finished work of the cross. Matthew 16:24 is an example of his conviction that our deliverence from the power of sin is found in the finished work of the cross. He simply has the note, "the benefits of the cross, what Jesus did there [Col. 2:14-15]. This view is a consequence of his ongoing study driven by a desire to find victory over sin.



An interesting side note. It was this very doctrinal difference that caused one of the first pentecostal rifts in the early 1900's. If memory serves me right it was a man named Durham who began to teach the finished work doctrine at Azusa street. This did not square with the more traditional pentecostal viewpoint held by Seymore, et.al.. Again, if my understanding and memory are correct, the Assemblies of God, and other similar pentecostal sects followed from Durham and the pentecostal holiness, UPC, and other similar sects from Seymore, Parham, etc. I am not sure of Swaggart's background.


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Travis

 2012/6/7 9:05Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Agree, Krispy. He did not sanctify the Lord before the congregation. Yet, he continues to shepherd them. You can be sure there was a cost to all of this. There has probably been a bigger cost to his refusal to submit to church discipline than there was with his original sin. The sin was one thing and no one witnessed that but God, however the rebellion in his heart towards God that led to that sin was manifested for all to see when he would not comply with those that he always said he was under their authority. When, there was great personal loss at stake he did not respect their authority and became an authority unto himself. That alone, did more to stumble Christians than his original sin.

Very sad story.

Pilgrim

 2012/6/7 9:05Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
When, there was great personal loss at stake he did not respect their authority and became an authority unto himself. That alone, did more to stumble Christians than his original sin.



Certainly there are a great many things to consider. Again, some men's sins go before them to the judgment, while other mens sins follow after. If God should pull the card of every man that has sinned in similar fashion or failed to sanctify the Lord before the people at some point in their ministry, who would be left? I don't ride the bandwagon of critiquing of ministers that often prevails here on SI. Why? because we are all going to give an account to God, and that right soon.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 9:20Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, this is an unusual situation. when he was being disciplined by the assemblies of God, he was their biggest contributor and owned the church and the property,the tv building , the radio station,the bible college,the printing presses, etc. and had many employees that were counting on him.this was a business move that has enabled him to keep most of his property that he surely would have lost. he left the assemblies and is independent. he has made many mistakes in his past but is probably a much better man today than he ever was. i live in his dorm which he rents to the public since the bible college is under 100 students but do not go to the church which is 1/4 full with people from around the country.(radio nand tv followers who have moved here )very few people from this area go to the church for we have many great churches in this area. i respect him now as never before but worry about some of his employees who seem to worship him.jimp

 2012/6/7 9:26Profile









 Re: The Swaggart "expositors" bible

I Jimmy Swaggart Expositors bible was thrust out there to bring understanding to all Christendom regarding a revelation of the cross. Brother Swaggart had received a powerful understanding about what Christ accomplished on the cross and our association with it. It helped me considerably. However, the brother would have done well if he had of stuck with just the Exposed revelation to which he came to understand. But like all men in ministry they tend to go beyond their intended ministry.

The Message of the Cross to which he teaches is profound and worth listening to. But when one is going to do a bible exposition, one will interpret meanings that one has no revelation on, so then you have man's understanding mixed in with God's.

We ALL will do this, so it's not exclusive to the Jimmy Swaggarts or other notables. We are convinced by what we know to be the truth, even if that perceived truth is error. The only way we know that we are speaking truth is by the power that follows. God will always confirm His word with signs following. Before we lose our heads on this one, a sign can even be someone "getting" what your preaching. This is what sets us apart from other religions, the power that follows when the word of God is actually preached.

Even when we say, "we have truth" that is still questionable until it's been tried. Personally, I have no truth, I am as blind as a bat.

But the Message of the Cross that Swaggart preaches is in my estimation, right on. And a much needed message in our generation.

As to your questions

Quote:
1) the unfounded, Finis Dake pre-Adamite earth theory and 2) the surprisingly unorthodox stance on MT 16:24 concerning Jesus telling us to deny ourself and carry our cross and follow him.

The first question is not a salvation issue, it's just one's mans theory as to why certain things had existed at one time and no longer and we need to quell that nagging idea with a theory. Everyone of us have an opinion on some unfounded theory. Somehow it gets interwoven in our belief system, this can't be helped this will go on as long as man roams the earth.

The second, what exactly does brother Swaggart say in his Expositor regarding Matthew 16:24?

 2012/6/7 9:39
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Robert,

I did not pass judgment on Jimmy and I hope you are not passing judgment on me. I don't know anything about his life the last 20 years. I am speaking about a point in time and everything I mentioned is public knowledge and it is not third hand. Do you think God banned Israel from critiquing David's actions or his son's?

God lays out everything for us in the Bible so that we can "critique" and learn from men's mistakes. He hides nothing. We can also critique and learn from men's mistakes in today's world while still showing mercy and kindness. If anything, these serve as warnings to us.

Here is a critique by Paul.

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ENSAMPLES: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:1-12

Pilgrim

 2012/6/7 9:48Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The second, what exactly does brother Swaggart say in his Expositor regarding Matthew 16:24?



Here is the layout of the passage with spaces to show the verse and then the comment.

_________

24: Then said Jesus unto His disciples, if any man come after me let him deny Himself.

comment: (not asceticism, but rather the denial of ones own strength and ability)

24b: and take up his cross,

comment: (the benefits of the cross, what Jesus did there [Col. 2:14-15].

24c: and follow me

comment: (if Christ is not followed by means of the cross, He cannot be followed at all).

25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it

comment: (tries to live his life outside the cross; it can only be lived through the cross)

25b: whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.

comment: (lose his life to Christ, which means to give his life to Christ, which can only be done through the cross; he then finds "newness of life" (Romans 6:3-5).

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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 9:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If God should pull the card of every man that has sinned in similar fashion or failed to sanctify the Lord before the people at some point in their ministry, who would be left? I don't ride the bandwagon of critiquing of ministers that often prevails here on SI. Why? because we are all going to give an account to God, and that right soon.



The scripture is clear that teachers, pastors, elders etc are held to a very high standard and Paul spelled out in his letters to Timothy and Titus what those standards and qualifications are. There is a big difference between a Christian who stumbles now and then and sins... and teacher/pastor/elder who is being watched by the entire world who falls into habitual sexual sin. (if you recall, he was caught several times. He did not stop even after he was exposed.)

I dont hold that against Swaggert, and as I said, I believe he has moved beyond that. BUT according to scripture he is not to be a pastor/teacher/elder any more. He is not qualified. Pilgrim pointed out that he thwarted the authority of the church, and therefore he thwarted the very Word of God that he now seeks to exposit for us in his new expository Bible.

I dont hate Swaggert, altho I will be accused of it, I'm sure. I am saying that we would do well to avoid him. If he was truly following scripture he would have stepped down and never entered the pulpit again. Instead, he rebelled against church discipline and entered the pulpit to resume his career.

That is a real problem, and there is nothing wrong or gossipy about discussing that. Everything he has done has been right there in the public eye, just as Pilgrim pointed out. Therefore it needs to be addressed publicly. Being silent about it only leads to people blinldy following a man who is not qualified to stand and teach.

Krispy

 2012/6/7 9:58
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I did not pass judgment on Jimmy and I hope you are not passing judgment on me. I don't know anything about his life the last 20 years. I am speaking about a point in time and everything I mentioned is public knowledge and it is not third hand. Do you think God banned Israel from critiquing David's actions or his son's?



I'm just not in the habit of bringing up past sins about people that are under the blood. If God casts a sin behind His back, I have no plans to go and examine it.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 10:06Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The scripture is clear that teachers, pastors, elders etc are held to a very high standard and Paul spelled out in his letters to Timothy and Titus what those standards and qualifications are. There is a big difference between a Christian who stumbles now and then and sins... and teacher/pastor/elder who is being watched by the entire world who falls into habitual sexual sin. (if you recall, he was caught several times. He did not stop even after he was exposed.)



Do you have any specific verses in mind that we can examine to determine the counsel of God in this matter?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2012/6/7 10:07Profile





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