| Re: |
//The Anabaptists that were opposed by the Reformers in the 1520's and 1530's were violent revolutionaries guilty of abominable atrocities and abuses.//
ummm??? Like Michael Sattler??? Ummm???
John Calvin Treatise against the anabaptist and against the libertines translated by Benjamin Wirt Farley p.157
John Calvin wrote
// Now in order to give a favorable pretext to their doctrine, they have published along with their resolution the history of the Death of a certain Michael (footnote says Sattler)an accomplice and member of their sect.In fact ,they are in the habit of making a powerful defense out of the fact that some have been killed for holding views which would not retract,although if they had they might have escaped death and ransomed their life. Indeed,it is an effective means of authorizing a doctrine for a man to abandon his life courageously and freely in order to confirm his belief. For when we are told what the prophets,apostles,and other martyrs endured in order to maintain the truth of Gode,we are so much the more strengthened to adhere to the faith we hold,which they sealed by their blood.
I acknowledge,therefore,that we must not vilify the death of God's servants,since their courage and constancy is no small aid in supporting our weakness. But since we can be thoroughly deceived by this unless we have another criterion,we must return to the foundation without which we should be unable to make sound judgments or be certain about the matter.
Certainly a mans death, whoever he might be,is never so precious that it can or ought to prejudice Gods truth in any thing, or be so beneficial as to approve of erroneous and perverse doctrines.Therefore let us hold to this:that although a sound and solid doctrine,being founded on reason,is confirmed later by the death of its adherents and confessors by whom it is maintained,nevertheless,the death of the whole world cannot prove a lie.
Indeed what seperates the martyrs of God from the devil's deciples is that the martyrs die for a righteous cause. Therefore in the same way that it is laudable and courageous to suffer death when necessity calls for it in order to bear witness to the truth,so also it is insane obstinancy to suffer for a wicked cause.So much so that whoever suffers for it the most is all the more reprimanded. In fact, when we let ourselves be carried away by this pretext, we lose complete judgment and esteem.//
| 2012/6/12 1:06||Profile|
| Re: |
RE:"It is so liberating - very liberating."
RE: "The spirit of modern anabaptism quenches this liberty,"
Luther The Reformer The Story of the Man and His Career, by James M. Kittelson Fortress Press Minneapolis 2003
About Faith and Conscience Luther writes p.287
// "Sometimes it is necessary to drink a little more,play,joke or even commit some sin in defiance and contempt of the devil in order not to give him opportunity to make us scrupulous about small things. We will worry to much about falling into some sin... what do you think is my reason for drinking wine undiluted, talking freely,and eating more often if it is not to torment and vex the devil freely,and eating more often if it is not to torment and vex me? Would that I could commit some token sin simply for the sake of mocking the devil,so that he might understand that I acknowledge no sin and am conscious of no sin. When the devil attacks and torments us,we completely set aside the Ten Commandments" Nothing, absolutely nothing was more important to Luther than faith and,with it, a free conscience//
ummm?? a free conscience is for listening for God to direct us, not so that we can do as we please!!
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they say that Finney had a devil??
Edit: I am not implying that Luther did
| 2012/6/12 1:31||Profile|
| Re: savannah ???|
RE:by savannah / Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false
prophets. Luke 6:26 /
RE:by savannah /The Scriptures implore us: "Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the Law and judges it." James 4:11/
RE:by savannah / Malice and a (Contentious) Spirit
There is a disturbing tendency throughout the church, seen regularly in homes where they have "roast pastor for Sunday lunch", to set ourselves up continually as judges of those who are better than us. Many have the gift of criticism and a ministry of discouragement. Few recognise how seriously their casual criticism, of what are often trivial matters, erodes and undermines the ministries of those called of God to service.
"Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander of every kind." 1 Peter 2:1
As the Scripture so plainly shows us, slander of every kind is inseparable from malice, deceit, hypocrisy and envy. (The middle letter of pride is "I", the middle letter of lie is "I", the middle letter of sin is "I", so too the middle letter of Lucifer is "I".) Self centred pride is often at the root of our desire to slander great men and women of the past, and to drag down others whom God has raised up./
Re:by savannah/ Edwards declared: "
(avoid contention). A contentious people will be a miserable people
heat of spirit, evil speaking and things of the like
directly contrary to the spirit of Christianity
watch against a contentious spirit
RE:by savannah /It was his sad experience to continually be a victim of malicious and unfounded charges throughout his time in Australia. His fearless denunciation of sin made him numerous enemies,/
RE: Savannah wrote /My biggest bone of (contention) with the anabaptism of today is the self-righteous holier-than-thou spirit which their theology tends to breed. Rather than grace, it can better be characterized by dis-grace. Certainly not all,but most of this persuasion look down upon those who do not come up to their standard of holiness. Sadly,the grace they proclaim is lawful,intolerant,and grace-less rather than grace-ful. This is why I use the term dis-grace to describe their grace. Many have been bruised,broken and quenched by their demands to meet their standards of so-called holiness. If they were ministers of the gospel of grace, they'd do as the LORD of that gospel. As we read here://
| 2012/6/12 23:25||Profile|
| Re: Anabaptists in the 1520's and 1530's were radical, violent revolutionaries.|
RE:/Those who accuse the Reformers of persecuting the Anabaptists are being unfair and selective in not reporting the whole context. The Anabaptists were not so much opposed and convicted for not being willing to baptise babies, but because the Anabaptists in the 1520's and 1530's were radical, violent revolutionaries./
Michael Sattler radical, violent revolutionaries.??
Felix Manz radical, violent revolutionaries.??
Conrad Grebel,radical violent revolutionaries.??
From everything I can find to research, I have found no evidence that the The Swiss Brethren of Whom Zwingy was opposed to and whom John Calvin wrote His Treatise Against where violent revolutionaries.
Please, Do Show your researched evidence to so Post a statement as this.
RE: / because the Anabaptists in the 1520's and 1530's were radical, violent revolutionaries./
Lumping all Anabaptist With Munzer would it not be like lumping all Modern Calvinist with Westboro?, Would it not be slander?, Would it not be gossip ?, would it not be a Lie?, Would it not be all that the original Post spoke against.
Does this sound like the works of radical, violent revolutionaries??
John Calvin Treatise against the anabaptist and against the libertines translated by Benjamin Wirt Farley p.15
"The seven articals defining there Brotherly Union. The seven articles consist of (1)a rejection of infant baptism,(2-5)statements on the ban,The Lords supper,ministers,and the need to seperate from political abominations,and(6-7) (rejections of the use of the sword) and the oath."
History of the Christian Church volume vlll Modern Christianity The Swiss Reformation by Philip Schaff Eerdmans publishing company reprint 1988 copyright 1910
"The German Radicals,Carlstadt and Munzer, were for a short time in Switzerland and on the Rhine,but did not rebaptize and had no influence upon the Swiss Radicals,who opposed rebellion to the civil authority."
| 2012/6/15 0:17||Profile|
| Re: |
Savannah, It would serve you well if you took your own advice about the spreading of slander. I am referring to your slander of the Anabaptist!
The descendants of the European reformers would not agree with you. Look up this link:
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has formally apologized for Lutheran persecution of Anabaptists in 16th-century Europe.~http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost
There are more articles on the web referring to this incident.
| 2012/6/15 8:26||Profile|
| Re: WHEN ALL MEN SPEAK WELL OF YOU|
RE:savannah on 2012/6/3 3:59:31 wrote
/WHEN ALL MEN SPEAK WELL OF YOU
Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false
prophets. Luke 6:26
It is interesting how, in spite of all the warnings in Scripture against gossip, slander, and tale bearing, just how much stock we tend to place in people's opinions. It is said that where there is smoke there is fire. However, the smoke may be no more than dust and hot air./
| 2012/7/8 19:49||Profile|
| Re: |
I deleted my post...no one posted after this one so I deleted it...
When I came onto the site I saw this thread and the Still Small Voice told me I should not open it but did anyways and felt guilty ever since for doing so and responding like I did. I am sorry and apologize...
| 2012/7/9 8:20||Profile|