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DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 The Mystery of Salvation

While at work today I started listening to a podcast of Paul Washer. It was actually downloaded from another site similiar to SI. It is titled 'A liar or a coward'. I didn't get to listen to the whole thing but Paul said something that struck me and it caused me to question the nature of Salvation. He mentioned in this podcast that you can think you are saved when you actually are not.

This got me to thinking about the nature of salvation and how sure a person should be vs. the surety that a person is not at all saved. It causes me to think how a person can really tell another person that they are saved based on certain criteria. I have heard testimonies of preachers who spent 20 years in the ministry and then got out and became agnostic or atheists. I think to myself, how can this be? Does this mean the person ever had salvation or does it mean that he may still be saved but will not inherit more when they pass away?

I am not sure how much stock I take in Paul Washer. He sounds like a conservative fundamentalist and sometimes that can be a dangerous think especially when it comes to the do's and don'ts of life. He is passionate and yet based on his words I wonder if his surety of his own salvation is true or is he decieved by his own heart? Do you get my question here?


_________________
John

 2012/6/2 19:09Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re: The Mystery of Salvation

Hi! DEADn

Wow! Reading your comments has left me breathless.
I have no idea who this Paul Washer is; but neither do I recognize half the names/titles attached to the SermonIndex audio portfolio.
There are jus' so many dubious people to be found out there in MouseLand who supposedly are preaching the Gospel of Jesus.

First thing: It's never what you or anyone else believes per se ... it's always about what God says which counts and where you attach your believing (faith) to.
Simply put, if you accept the fact that Jesus died to pay your deserved wages of sin and rose again to give you newness of life, neither you nor your feelings nor some bombastic speaker can dare argue against that.

Listen: If you awoke this morning and heard a rumor that you had green hair, would you believe them? Of course not. You are absolutely sure about what belongs to you. So, the advice is "Let every man be a liar" about what you own for yourself ... including your Salvation.

Have you ever wondered why everyone is not a business entrepreneur or a workplace supervisor 'er whatever? Well, the answer is that every man has a human spirit and this composite determines both the strength and weakness of them. Some are born with strong aggressive traits in their inner man, some with assertiveness, some are born shy and and mild.

There are some human spirits which have been gifted with what we recognize as 'charisma'. It is said about such people that they turn heads when they enter a room. They have a commanding presence about themselves which draws and attracts people.

When those with charisma speak, their words can echo with great oratory command; sometimes even be acutely compelling. That's why the most successful motivational speakers are also are known for their charisma.

Sadly, a lot of Christians can mistake the charisma abilities of the human spirit to be somehow spiritual. They wrongly misinterpret it's natural power and attraction as godly.

So, we need to recognize that jus' 'cuz someone can mesmerize an audience with chrisma and oratory, it doesn't have any value to a Christian ... unless of course, they prefer the 'Gospel of Entertainment' or the 'Gospel of World Events' which gives ample opportunity for the dramatic and the alarmists.

Most media preachers I hear these days are motivational teachers who decided to earn themselves a fortune from behind a pulpit. They should instead be appearing at Carnegie Hall where they rightly belong.

Anyways, without proper context where Paul Washer stated "You can think you are saved when you are not!". I will listen to the PodCast you mentioned later this evening.

==================================
by DEADn on 2012/6/2 16:09:49

While at work today I started listening to a podcast of Paul Washer. It was actually downloaded from another site similiar to SI. It is titled 'A liar or a coward'. I didn't get to listen to the whole thing but Paul said something that struck me and it caused me to question the nature of Salvation. He mentioned in this podcast that you can think you are saved when you actually are not.

====================================




 2012/6/2 20:41Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re: The Mystery of Salvation

paul washer is a sourthern bapties who has spent much of his life as a missionnary in places life peru,,,has seen what its like to ministery in the 3rd world ,risked his life many times ,,,,he is the director of a missions socity called heart cry ,,he is not actualy a fundamentelest,,but is seen as one by many ,and has preacherd in fundamentel churches

he has a burden for souls like cater conlon

one main tenent of his preaching ,,is sercret prayer

after listening to and watching maby one hundred of his sermon ,i disagree deadn ,,he is a a man verry sure of his salvation ,,

and if a person is truely regenrated and has the fruits of the spirit and repentence in there life ,a person can recieve much from paul washers sermons ,,regarding assurance

gods has also used paul washer to rebuke the southern baptise denomination ,for the fasle gosple preached by many ,,and has casued many to repent ,,,even some on sermon index have been effected this way

im a carsamatic and have found paul washers sermons to be verry edafing ,tho hae is not a carsmatic ,,but has good friends that are ,,and speaks of carsamatics like ravenhill ,and john piper , and martin lyode jones ,as gods gifts to the church

paull believes as i do that many are called but few are chossen as the bible teaches ,,and that many people are drawn by the holy spirit and experance a measure of conviction and faith ,,but do not experance regeneration and saving faith , if regeneration is experanced,,it results ,fruit of the spirit ,conviction of sin ,,ongoing sangtafication and a deeping repentance ,and this faith will produce works ,and also a hatered for sin ,and will with out doubt led to an obedance towards god ,and it will continue,,,a victory over sin

brothers i would sugest i person should listen to at least 20 of his sermons before judging paul washer as a fundamentel crak pot ,,sermon index endorses his sermons here for good reason

one of his oldest sermon is called shocking youth message preacherd when he was quite young to 5000 young sourthern baptises , it seems to be the most popular sermon of his

his brokeness and humily are evedent in the sermon and prayers

i pray you are blessed by his sermons blane and deadn

 2012/6/2 21:13Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re: The Mystery of Salvation

I totally agree with Paul Washer. He is one of the very few voices who have not compromised the truth of the Scriptures.

I watched a youtube (link below) that got me thinking about the nature of faith. What exactly is it.

Please watch and answer the question for yourself. What is the nature of saving faith that God supposes us to have?

I think until we posses the honesty of a jungle man from the Zulu tribe in South Africa we will never discover what saving faith is and the difference between it and a mental agreement with God's promises which people often time confuse with saving faith.

http://youtu.be/5GgDXTKT_p8


_________________
Fifi

 2012/6/2 22:28Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Blayne

The podcast this came from was from sermonaudio entitled 'Liar and a Coward'. Essentially Paul is telling the crowd about how he came to Jesus and what kind of a person he was. Part of me was a little skeptical but only in the fact that I wonder how much of his story was he stretching to make it sound good? Sometimes it is too easy to just accept a testimony without critical thinking of how really true it is. One thing that did catch my attention is about prayer. He mentioned praying for hours and reading books on prayer and something about God giving him grace in the beginning of his ministry before taking it away and causing him to work or something. I have to relisten to that part, fortunately I looked at the time on it so I can go back to it.

He also said something that really struck me and directly and indirectly spoke to me personally as well as maybe answered a question. He spoke about crying out to God and God not answering. Then he would be in certain places and saying 'God, I am here, You are not, I AM WAITING...' I thought, Yeah, this is partly where I am at the moment. Then I thought about those who used to be Christian and are not atheists or agnostics. Most likely these people did the same thing or similiar and because God did not answer they turn their back on them. It brings in the reality of the sinful nature and its affects and on separate our soul from God vs. the reality that God doesn't exist and therefore we hear nothing of Him. Personally, I find the mystery of the sinful nature more evident than God not existing based on human behavior.


_________________
John

 2012/6/3 21:52Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! DEADn
I really am getting to look forward to reading your Posts here because they have a straightforward sentiment about them.
Jesus knocks on the door of everyone's heart with an individual sound which is especially recognized by the individual themselves. I've often thought that Jesus has perhaps knocked on doors of a zillion hearts and not once has the sound been the same for any one of them. So, I'm careful not to question the legitimacy of someone's introduction to Jesus.

For instance, I have a very close Christian friend who awoke one morning with a compelling need to search for the person of God. She had never seen the inside of a Church before that day. She climbed into her car and randomly drove down the street and stopped at the first building that had the look of a church and entered. As she tells it, she was just sitting there and listening to some man speaking when a very uncomfortable dark feeling came over her. Immediately after, she heard a calm but strong voice in her heart/mind saying: "The One whom you are seeking is not to be found here!"
So, right there and then she got up from her seat and left the building to drive back home. On her way home, she saw another building with a huge inviting church sign and she decided to enter this building looking for God. And, she found Him.
Do you know what the first building was about? It was a spiritualist church filled with Mediums and Occult.

The wonderful thing about Jesus is that, when we answer the knock at the door, we discover that He did not arrive to shame or threaten us. On the contrary! He quietly embraces us and begins to speak about His hopes and heartfelt desires for us.

I myself was born with a severe facial deformity. My father had threatened more than once to murder me. He would justify it by saying, "When the cow has a calf that is born deformed, you kill both the cow and the calf".
By the time I was in my early teens, I was severely damaged psychologically; by the time I was 20 years, I had become a raging menace.

But Jesus knocked on my door too. Actually, I think that He first needed to pound on my roof to get my attention. Sometimes people are found in the very depths of the 'Land of Stolen Spirits' where God has to pipe SonLight to them before they can hear His knock at their door. :)

DEADn, you wrote: "He spoke about crying out to God and God not answering".
God can never be fitted into some man-conceived formula. It took me a very long time to figure that out for myself. I can't tell you how many self-help Christian books I read during the early years of my Christian journey.
God doesn't like being asked to answer according to a formula. Neither does He desire long prayers or self-mutilation. No, God isn't like that.

Did you know that sometimes God answers prayer so wonderfully that some might be tempted to say that He is 'spoiling' His children?
Take me, for instance. When I first heard the Gospel of Repentance, I was a safe-cracker and thief. This was essentially because I couldn't last at a job for more than three days before my warped mind and behavior would cause me to be fired.
Anyways, on the very day I was to hear the Gospel, I awoke with an injury to my knee and I was barely able to walk. But I had told a criminal friend of mine that I would meet him at a certain building which was adjacent to another which we were preparing to break into. So, I dragged myself up the street in great pain because our rent and food depended on a successful crime.
To make a long story short, I was beginning to panic about my injury. When I arrived at the building where I was to meet my criminal cohort, a Bible minister was inside and I asked him if he would drive me to the hospital. He replied, "How about I pray for you first?". I answered, "Well, I'll let you do your magic wand trick if you promise to drive me to the hospital afterwards".
I was instantaneously healed as he was praying for me.
So, I stopped my criminal behavior right there and then But I had no money or food. I was sleeping in the local parks and eating at a free food place. One day I desperately needed socks and I was walking down the city sidewalk and saw a crumpled bag sitting on the shelf in a public phone booth. There was two brand new pairs of socks in the bag!

I could tell you so many more stories like that where God richly spoiled me because that was the only language I could understand from Him at the time.

But as I mentioned before, I was a complete mess psychologically ... a true double-minded man. Even after hearing the Gospel and even after seeing God's hand over my life in most miraculous ways, I shamefully returned to criminal behavior.

Why did this happen?
Well, I couldn't really ever trust a God who created me with such a suffocating deformity. Nor was was I able to differentiate my Heavenly Father's behavior from what I had learned of my earthly father. As was the case with Jonah, I had become angry with God; I blamed Him for all my anguish and failures. I would find myself screaming at Him saying: "I can't live with you and I can't live without you!"; "If you hadn't given me this deformity, I might have had a fair chance at life!".

So, it could be said that I only had a reverential attachment to God; much like I had with my parents. Never once had my earthly father hugged me nor did my mother ever embrace me. So, I knew nothing about what a relationship really meant. I knew only about personal attachments. I could only love God for who He was, not for what He had done.

Again to make the story short:
I ended up in a prison cell doing a major sentence.

I was sitting on the edge of my steel bed frame preparing to stretch out and pull the blankets over my head when a movie suddenly appeared in the air before me. It startled me at first. The movie was paused and the frame showed a sketch of a man holding a revolver aimed to the side his head. The trigger had been pulled because a bullet was already exiting the barrel and was milliseconds from slamming into his head. It was clearly someone playing Russian roulette.

I distinctly heard a voice asking, “What do you think this man’s last words were?”
I thought about the question for moment before hurriedly answering: “Wow! I’ve got such bad luck!”
Somehow, I guessed that my first response was unsatisfactory.
Once again the same picture of the man holding a revolver to his head appeared.
A voice again asked, “What do you think this man’s last words should have been?”
I was a bit perplexed at this point. It was clear to me that the unfortunate man had terrible luck. But that shallow observation was becoming increasingly unsettling to me.
Then I thought to myself that anyone who would play such a dangerous game had to be awfully stupid. The odds of blowing your head off were unacceptably high.
I replied aloud, “What a stupid man I am!”
The voice returned firmly saying, “Yes. His situation had nothing to do with bad luck. It had everything to do with the stupid decision he made..
The voice continued, “You can’t continue blaming everyone else for the lost time of your life. You have to take responsibility for your own foolish and poor decisions. As long as you insist to blame everything bad in your life on your parents, your upbringing, your deformity and all your other tired excuses, you can never redeem the time.”

It was made clear. For years I begrudgingly resigned myself to being the victim of bad luck. If I continued insisting to shift the responsibility for my life to someone else, I would utterly fail to discover the meaning of my own existence. My parents could not tell me who I was. My parents gave me the title of the book, but this could never fully tell who I really am. If I refused to write the chapters to my own book, who was going compose them for me? That was something that only I myself could author from within.

And that is what changed my thinking and life and has me the man I am today.

So, DEADn, God does answer! Sometimes in ways which we never suspected nor desired. But He does indeed answer! And His answers have secrets of healing and restoration hidden in them.

Oh, an' maybe I should mention too that Jesus holds unbelievably stunning healing and restoration powers. There came a day where I was sufficiently healed in mind and heart that I was able to gain steady employment. Later, I became an executive at a leading multinational corporation; reporting to their Vice President.

Unfortunately, nearly every Christian whom I had come to know during the dark days of my troubled walk disowned me; especially after my imprisonment. Even the minister who had laid hands on me for healing and who led me to Jesus; he abandoned me too.

But there was one Christian man who stuck with me through thick and thin; who insisted to have the faith of God for me through every disappointment and miserable betrayal I gave him through those days of my living in the Land of Stolen Spirits. He's 74 years of age now and only last week mentioned that he didn't expect to remain on the earth too much longer. I will profoundly miss him after his passing.

Now, about sinful nature and theories as such.
That's another subject for another day, perhaps. I discovered things for myself about this too because of my own deliverance from the "miry clay" of my times past.




 2012/6/3 23:58Profile









 Re:

Outstanding post, Blayne. You know, I can't physically read long posts Unless The LORD enables me? That is the sincere truth and He sure did enable with this one. Praise The LORD Almighty! Very grateful I just came back on and found this - although, because my tear ducts won't let the tears out 90% of the time - my eyes hurt now - :)
You surely did explain "Christian Psychology" to a tee, as well.

Quote:
The voice continued, “You can’t continue blaming everyone else for the lost time of your life. You have to take responsibility for your own foolish and poor decisions. As long as you insist to blame everything bad in your life on your parents, your upbringing, your deformity and all your other tired excuses, you can never redeem the time.”

It was made clear. For years I begrudgingly resigned myself to being the victim of bad luck. If I continued insisting to shift the responsibility for my life to someone else, I would utterly fail to discover the meaning of my own existence. My parents could not tell me who I was. My parents gave me the title of the book, but this could never fully tell who I really am. If I refused to write the chapters to my own book, who was going compose them for me? That was something that only I myself could author from within.



This is dead-on target, Blayne. More like, "life on target".

I am glad you shared 'about you'. Some of us here have done so but I sure wish more would give what their childhood was like. That opens doors to the Right type of 'personal'. Bless Jesus!

Glad you posted what you have, Brother!

 2012/6/4 0:49









 Re:

I came back on to talk with Brother Gary but had the pleasant surprise of Blayne's post. I had copied this quote earlier and went off to pour my heart out actually in this post below. Came back to copy and paste it so - hope Brother Gary finds my questions here as well.

Any capitals are merely for emphasis and nothing to worry about - but just the feeling of a burden expressed.

Quote:
many are called but few are chossen as the bible teaches ,,and that many people are drawn by the holy spirit and experance a measure of conviction and faith ,,but do not experance regeneration and saving faith , if regeneration is experanced,,it results ,fruit of the spirit ,conviction of sin ,,ongoing sangtafication and a deeping repentance ,and this faith will produce works ,and also a hatered for sin ,and will with out doubt led to an obedance towards god ,and it will continue,,,a victory over sin



Hi Brother Gary, this has been something on my heart for a long while now and it's goes along with what's quoted above, regarding these verses below and a little bit of commentary and pray you don't mind if I pour it out to you.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last:
for many be called, but few chosen.

Matt 20:16 comes after those hired had agreed to work for one penny and those that worked longer expected more than those that only worked a short time and were complaining about only getting that penny that they agreed to.
Wesley says of this - " It is my will to give to this last called among the heathens even as to the first called among the Jews: yea, and to the late converted publicans and sinners, even as to those who, were called long before."


This next verse comes right after the story about those invited to a wedding ...

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Wesley again: "Many hear; few believe. All who hear the Gospel; but few chosen - Only those who obey it.
Because they didn't have "the wedding garment on". A wedding garment is the righteousness of Christ, first imputed, then implanted."




The reason I bring this up, is because there are many that have only come to Christ as a fire escape and figured in their mind, "Yeah, I don't want to go to Hell. It's worth it to behave a little better and read the Bible and go to Church than to go to Hell." - so they go this route.
Then down the road a piece, they haven't the fruit of being a Christian inside of them; "Christ", "regeneration", truly "born-Again" - no power against the desires of their flesh and no true grasp on what they're reading in their Bible, because the Spirit of Truth is not dwelling inside of them - because their "conversion" wasn't genuine.

If folks in that condition were reading your post, they could think [and I have seen Many that Do think this] ... "Oh my GOD, I'M NOT CHOSEN" ... and they get shook very badly when that happens. They go into despair. They get MAD at GOD. And eventually, they are like the seed sown on the different conditions of the ground [hearts] and they Give Up On Christ when things get hard or temptations come, etc..

It wasn't The LORD that wouldn't except them. They came to Him for the wrong reason. They didn't count the cost. They maybe weren't even told about any cost. Others just weren't sincere when they made their "confession of faith".


BUT - these are those that we MUST HELP NOW and tell them - "COME! - It's not too late."

Like the blind man that saw men as trees walking - they can ask for that Second touch. They can come to Him and get the "real thing", if they're willing to count the cost and say "Yes, LORD" and not just as the fire escape, but because they truly desire Him to live inside of them, submitting to Him in that abandonment of ownership of themselves and what they do with their lives, out of 'Love' for Him - because of He first loved us from the cross.
Who couldn't feel Gratitude for what He did for all, on that day? Having a true heart of understanding of the extent of what He suffered and was doing on that cross.


Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


Jas 4:7,8 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.


Isa 55:6-8 Seek ye the LORD while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD.



Brother, what is The LORD saying to 'you', in Ezekiel 33:7-20? [eta - I added 7 because I am asking in the sense that you're the watchman as you read.]



GOD Bless you!!




Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

 2012/6/4 1:08
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! Jesus-is-GOD an' you too, Gary

Ummm, first thing, 'Jesus-Is-God', thank you for your kind comment about what I volunteered to Member 'DEADn'. It warmed my heart reading them. I'm always having to overcome the reluctance to write about my past. But I figured that 'DEADn' deserved a full and sincere answer to his questions.

I would like to contribute to your discussion about Matthew 20:16, "So the last shall be first, and the first last; for many be called, but few chosen" and, the parable about the Laborers in the Vineyard.

Of course, you already know that the parable concerns a discussion about the Kingdom of Heaven because it clearly states it as such at the beginning of the narrative: "For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard".

It has to first be confirmed that you have knowledge about this Kingdom and are acquainted with it's "Keys" in accordance with, "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven",(Matthew 16:19)
Let me answer the above for you:
Your opinions about the verses in question reveal that you have little knowledge about the Gospel of the Kingdom; neither are you especially acquainted with the "Keys".

I don't at all say this to offend you. I'm simply trying to make it very clear that the verses which you are examining here belong to the gospel OF Jesus ... (not merely the gospel about Him). And the gospel OF Jesus is the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Maybe you could re-start this discussion as an independent Thread and we can all discuss it further there?
What yuh think about that, 'Jesus-is-GOD'? Wanna' do that 'er what?



 2012/6/4 1:48Profile









 Re:

Well Blayne, the post addressed to Brother Gary is a question I am asking him in regards to "election" and those that have not truly entered into the gospel of Jesus through the narrow way or The Gate into His Kingdom, [Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.] ... but it was merely a fear of Hell that caused them to make a 'profession' of faith, only - and now they are finding out that they are stumbling around like a blind man, fearing that they weren't "chosen" because of a mis-interpretation of those two verses from Matthew and they are giving up on GOD because they believe their failure was due to them not being "chosen/elected" to begin with.
There are people in that condition - and they need to be told that they can 'enter in' by coming to Him with a better understanding of Who and 'what' they're coming into --- and NOT Give Up On GOD in Despair.



Thanks again for your testimony.

No need to start another thread. I only came on this thread initially to deliver something to Brother Gary, that I think he'll find in my {eta} to him personally.


Have a Good day there!



 2012/6/4 2:08





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