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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Charismatic movement; God's blessing and gifts without Repentance.

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 Re: The True Leaven which Rejects. And the Falling Away

Quote:
The man answered and said to them, well, here is an amazing thing that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God- fearing and does His will, He hears him. Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. If this man were not from God, He could do nothing. They answered him, you were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us? So they put him out.

Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, Do you believe in the Son of Man? He answered, Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him? Jesus said to him, You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped Him. And Jesus said, For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind. Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, We are not blind too, are we? Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, We see, your sin remains.



All the miracles of Jesus had two purposes according to this Scripture above. They are both revelations:

The first was to reveal judgment of God to men. The blind man had done nothing wrong. Yet he was blind. In restoring his sight Jesus showed that God is a just God. Before this miracle the blind in sight were simply blind without hope or understanding. The Pharisees taught that illness and blindness, as well as misfortune were evidence of sin. They burdened their hearers with the belief that their sicknesses were proof of their sinfulness. This is what today’s “healers” teach! On the one hand they say “I have a ministry of healings” and when men don’t get healed they say “your sin has robbed you of faith to believe”. This is the Lord’s meaning of being a Pharisee. Burdening other men rather than judging rightly. Healing is an evidence of God’s judgement in Christ own body. This judgement is the only basis for healing others.

The second revelation given in this Scripture above has to do with the “revealing” that Jesus was divine. To the Pharisees this healing should have given them all the proof they needed that this Jesus was indeed the Christ of God. Only Jesus Himself and those He empowered could heal men of their affliction ahead of the cross. After the cross, healing is on the same basis, but it is realised after true repentance. If miracles replace true repentance then you have what we see today. Only the Son of God could forgive sins and heal men of their weaknesses and afflictions. The Pharisees DID understand this because when Jesus forgave men their sins and healed them, they accused Him of blasphemy. Being like God.

The word which Jesus spoke in contrast was to Peter “the word of Life” became to the Pharisees a hidden thing. Jesus began speaking in parables in order to hide this Word from the Pharisees, because in knowing who Christ was, yet they accused Him of labouring in the power and authority of Satan. It is only after this blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven are given. These keys are the preaching of the gospel unto life, and baptism, which is burial unto resurrection and the walking in newness of life.

What constitutes a Pharisee today may be more subtle than we imagine. It may not simply be a walking about in public places to be seen. It may be a burdening other men with the grievous knowledge of sin; yet without lifting a finger to bear the burden. Or it may be a failure to come to true repentance so that we are able to bear one another's sins, in love. The mercy of God for this man was not only that he was once blind, and could see. It was that having been blind of sight he was able to see Jesus and hearing the words “, Do you believe in the Son of Man? He answered, Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him? Jesus said to him, You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” Thereby he worshiped the Son of Man: even Christ.

In contrast the Pharisees asked “are we blind also” to which Jesus answered “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, We see, your sin remains”.

Andrew

 2012/5/31 8:24
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: The Charismatic movement; God's blessing and gifts without Repentance.

Quote:
I simply and pointing out that SOME have embraced a gospel that is NOT based upon Repentance and Faith towards God,


I was at Wal-mart on Monday and picked up a TV I bought for my son’s birthday and as I was strolling out the door, the door checker (in a wheel-chair) stopped me to look at my receipt and then he noticed the ‘site-to-store’ tape on top of this huge box and apologized to me for stopping me!! I told him, “I’m not upset, I’ve got a receipt!” and laughed. The head cashier I know walked by and said something and I told her what I told him, “I’m don’t care to be stopped, I have a receipt,” and she said, “It’s always the ones without a receipt that throw the biggest fits.”

In my humble opinion (ducking the egg throwing), my point is, “It’s always the ones without trust in God that throw the biggest fits” about someone breaking one of their religious rules.... like Catholics speaking in tongues. Because if one truly trusted and knew the Lord, one would KNOW that their God does NOT give out His precious Holy Spirit without someone repenting and having faith. I am not saying that I understand it all but I will say that I am not taking sides but trusting in God that He knows what He is doing and He is in control.

I also wonder if this isn’t borderline blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.... for someone who claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit to take sides and be judge and jury of other brothers and sisters (baptism in the Spirit) that they don’t have the same Holy Spirit that you have JUST because they are a Catholic.

Anyway, just my meandering two cents... God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2012/5/31 8:33Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! Lysa
I couldn't contain my amusement on reading your comments here.
There you are relating a powerful truth about our Gospel using an incident of your experience at a Walmart store. It struck me as jus' so funny!
And then, to top it all off, you close saying, "Just my meandering two cents". This caused me to grin all the wider.

Who would have suspected that a narrative about someone being challenged for a receipt at a Walmart exit would contain such spiritual value!

It jus' goes tuh show how God speaks to everyone in a language that is intelligible to them in a very personal way. And, this is why your telling of it became instantly recognized as genuine by us.



 2012/5/31 9:33Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Blayne, I really enjoyed reading your long post!

Lisa I think Tom needs a break from policing everybody and everything. He could be such a blessing in the Lord to so many if only his criticism of everybody else didn't rule over him so much.

I have learned that those who seem to know so much about how everything is suppose to be and continually criticize everybody else who are not doing it like they think it should be done have set themselves up to be superior in knowledge above others. This pride will lead to destruction if they don't soon humble themselves and sometimes God will allow things to happen to them that will lead them to humble themselves. We must realize that God has allowed things in all of us that wasn't His perfect standard but He still blessed us desiring to bring us to more light and understanding of His way. We must not judge others with a judgement blanket because of past errors but we must realize that all have to come to the light of God through God blessing them to come. We must always speak the truth in Love desiring them to become fruitful in the Lord Jesus Christ and we must be careful not to kill what God has graciously already started in their life.



 2012/5/31 9:34Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
I also wonder if this isn’t borderline blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.... for someone who claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit to take sides and be judge and jury of other brothers and sisters (baptism in the Spirit) that they don’t have the same Holy Spirit that you have JUST because they are a Catholic.



Witch doctors in Africa, and all sorts of cults and false religions in Asia practice speaking in tongues. So do some Mormons. It's not unique to Christianity, except for the fact that we have the only real one when it's genuine.

Tongues prove nothing. I know of Catholics who pray in tongues to Mary. Or they babble. Be it psychological or demonic, I'm not sure, but since they don't even have the real faith in the real Jesus, one can hardly say they have the real Holy Spirit. That's MUCH closer to blasphemy any day of the week.

And even if they're speaking in an intelligible language, it doesn't mean that it's from the Holy Spirit and not demonically inspired. I know a guy who was in a service once where someone stood up in the midst of the service and gave a word in tongues, and there was a traveling missionary from China who then stood up and told the congregation that the language was in a Chinese dialect that he was familiar with, and the man had just been cursing and blaspheming Jesus in Chinese.

No, tongues is most certainly not the barometer to see if one is genuinely filled with the Holy Spirit.

Judging based on someone not fitting into a religious tradition mold that matches our own is dangerous, yes. Judging with a righteous judgement according to how the Bible outlines faith, spiritual giftings, and even repentance is BASIC BIBLICAL DISCERNMENT. It does not bother me in the slightest to say that Catholics that "speak in tongues" are either deceived, demonically influenced, just speaking nonsense, or any combination of the above. They're most certainly not filled with the Holy Spirit, because if they were, they would have gotten out of Rome.

 2012/5/31 9:36Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Oh, and by the way, keep telling it like it is BrotherTom. Even though you're getting backlash, your post was not in error, and I'm very glad you have the discernment and care to keep putting up articles of this style. God bless you for your stand in putting the TRUE GOSPEL at the center, like always.

 2012/5/31 10:01Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

I agree with much of your post Everest but I still believe that we must not throw a blanket of judgment on everybody in any group of people.

We must believe that God loves the millions of Catholic people even though many are ignorant of the deceptive teachings. Those that sin knowingly then God is the judge of that but God also wants to bring them to the knowledge of the truth. He died for everyone! We must be careful how we say things if we won't to reach others for Jesus.

 2012/5/31 10:02Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

I'm not saying that you cannot be a born again Christian and be a Catholic. However, I am stating that you cannot be a born again Christian and REMAIN a Catholic. God requires them to come out. Not to remain in mass, and participating in blasphemous sacraments, and bowing down to idols, etc.

Can God pour out His Spirit into someone in the Roman Catholic church? Most certainly! And shortly after they're going to leave. What they're not going to do is force the Holy Spirit to bend to the will and tradition of a blasphemous false religion.

Consider these:

A Christian, Spirit filled Buddhist.
A Christian, Spirit filled Muslim.
A Christian, Spirit filled Hindu.
A Christian, Spirit filled Satanist.
A Christian, Spirit filled Voodoo practitioner.
A Christian, Spirit filled Mormon.
A Christian, Spirit filled Catholic.

We wouldn't buy the validity of the first five (and hopefully not the sixth, though times are changing), but the seventh we feel a little more comfortable with, even though their religious establishment is just as lost and deceived as any one of the prior six.

Would the Holy Spirit have anything to do with one who decided to follow a mixture of any one of the first six?

What makes a mixture of the seventh all of a sudden so acceptable?

Is it because they use some of the same words and jargon as we "born agains" do? So do the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Should we turn a blind eye and let them into the club too? I mean after all, they've technically probably got more doctrine in line with us than the Catholics.

And I agree, God loves the Catholics and desires that they come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. However that doesn't mean that if we want to reach them that we sacrifice truth for the sake of love. The two are not somehow mutually exclusive. It's the fact that we love them that we even tell them the truth. Kind of like if you were a doctor and you didn't want to tell your patient they had bone cancer because they might be turned off from wanting anything to do with you, and in turn getting a reputation as a doctor that "only gives out bad news" no matter if it's just the plain truth. There's a cure, but first one has to be told that they're sick.

P.S. No harsh tone or anything remotely offensive (or defensive)is meant. I'm just speaking rhetorically. Text can be rather difficult to communicate that in.

 2012/5/31 10:06Profile









 Re: Sicerity of Purpose. Discernment not folly!

Quote:
Lisa I think Tom needs a break from policing everybody and everything. He could be such a blessing in the Lord to so many if only his criticism of everybody else didn't rule over him so much. Rbanks.



Is Tom a policeman? Does he really think he is policeman? A policeman is sworn to uphold the LAW. Cuts across the paradigm just a little. Tom is not seeking to uphold the LAW he is speaking about a reality of history. Not an idea. He is speaking about deception and its consequences.

Quote:
Who would have suspected that a narrative about someone being challenged for a receipt at a Walmart exit would contain such spiritual value! Blayne.



Mirth is for children not older men and certainly not for God’s elect. Laughter is easy it in the flesh. Its natural and comes upon us suddenly. Truth is more difficult to grasp. No spiritual value blayne just mirth. You said so!

Quote:
We've always had spiritual street sweepers among us; those who piously self-appoint themselves as guardians of the spiritual journey. But your comments here reveal something far more treacherous. Not satisfied with being merely a spiritual street sweeper, you now have appointed yourself as a spiritual executioner. Blayne.



Hi Tom you said and then ripped him to pieces. You called him treacherous, self appointed (which is to say FALSE) and a murderer. If that is a measure of true faithfulness and brotherly love blayne then there really is nothing to say.

Quote:
the priest in charge said i know there is no way to the Father but through Jesus but that is a rosary if you have forgot.the preaching was biblical and the worship was wonderful with a strong visitation from the Lord. very little talk about the church.in fact the religious church people hated it.many were saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. Jimp



This same “spiritually” minded priest also believes in Mary the Mother of God. Not Mary, “blessed art thou amongst women”. And a man the “Holy Father” and not the Holy Father which Jesus prayed to and taught the disciples to pray too. He also believed in a “bloodless sacrifice” for the remission of sin. And not the shed blood of Christ. Neither did he understand that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin”. Or else he was not a priest of Rome. Rome would not have been in this move if Rome had not agreed the terms in advance. It is a matter of record written in the blood of millions. Dr Graham is a doctor of Rome. It’s a fact. Those who were saved at his preaching were filtered and those who were RC in origin of their progeny were given back to Rome.

Regardless of our opinions or the facts of history, which are in any case entirely worthless, Truth is firstly comprehended from Scriptures and not from history. On the other hand lies and deception are discerned both in time and, space and are born witness too by the Holy Spirit throughout history. There is nothing new under the sun. All is vanity. Now am I become a policeman, a murderer, false and treacherous? By the same measure it must be so! Perhaps the Lord will grant me a sense of humour to cover it all up.

Andrew

 2012/5/31 10:51
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

I don't necessarily think God sees men as we see them (with labels). There are really only two categories. The Lost and the Found. The Saved and Unsaved.

We know whatever is not of God is sin. That is probably the most simple and understandable definition of sin.

God sees men either abiding in Him or abiding in the Wicked One.

Men are either bringing forth fruit unto life or bringing forth fruit unto death.

Some of the hardest people to reach with the Gospel are the ones who believe they have the truth.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Pilgrim


 2012/5/31 10:55Profile





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