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 Re:

Actually, this is not an excuse for insanity, most especially in a Christian. Tinnitis is a very common ailment. My father has had it since the big guns of IwoJima and he stayed quite sane. I've had it since 1994 and despite what those who don't know me personally may think :), I've stayed sane. Having worked in the medical fields, both my Dad and I both - him being a Dr/Physologist - both of us are very well acquainted with this malady and others that have tinnitis and few Drs can or will treat it because there's no cure.
Though I sympathize with anyone with this or any other disease, very much so - it's not a cause of what's described here.

Luther was not fully sound doctrinally and GOD only knows the rest, but the things he believed that were not Biblical and the parts of the RCC that he held onto, wouldn't help one's state of mind.

If I'm not mistaken - there were those before Luther and the others mentioned along the lines of Calvin - that broke from the RCC but were not Augustinians nor Calvinistic in there beliefs. That the breaking from the RCC would have happened even without them.

 2012/5/30 19:19
davidkeel
Member



Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 421
West Sussex, England

 Re:

I understood from the start your intentions for starting this thread Bearmaster. You have found something interesting which you wanted to share with us.
I didn't think you were starting arguments.

It's helped me to understand and hear things about the reformation which I hadn't known. Thanks for starting it.


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David Keel

 2012/5/30 20:50Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: bearmaster

Re: bearmaster wrote
"The best stance is all things are ours. Much can be gleamed from both the reformers and the anabaptist. So praise God for some of that being preserved at SI."

Amen.

Have you heard the sermon " The Spirit Of Law And The Spirit Of Grace by Denny Kenaston" I would highly recommend it http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=13205

 2012/5/31 0:17Profile
Josef83
Member



Joined: 2010/8/21
Posts: 111
Sweden

 Re: I Reject the Reformers

Thats sad.

Firstly what I see today is mostly the "reformers" getting persecuted on bloggs and on the internet.
I have seen slanders on John Piper and on our church here in Sweden just because we are reformed. We dont attack back we just bless them.
But people really write awfull things about Calvin and us etc.
I have listened to people saying all kind of wierd things and almost nothing is true.

Secondly it doesnt matter if someone behaved a bit wrong in some situations the question is what does the bible teach?. If the bible teach it then its true.
I just read through Luthers "The bondage of the will" And I am convinced that he was right. He was by the way teaching double predestination in that book.
But I do not agree on all things he said.
One thing he said was that thoose affirming the doctrine free will are not saved because they deny the grace of God.
That kind of statement I do not agree on.

‎"And I would also, that the advocates for "free will" be admonished in this place, that when they assert "free will," they are deniers of Christ. For ifI obtain grace by my own endeavours, what need have I of the grace of God for the recieving of grace?" - Martin Luther (The bondage of the will, page 229)

Thirdly what Luther and Calvin taught were held by many before them.
Luther quotes John Wycliff. Also John Wycliff belived in predestination. He wrote a book of that topic.
The Valdanses that lived long before Calvin also held to that doctrine.
And most of all the bible teaches it I mean Romans chapter 9 is so clear and 9:6 is so clear that it aint talking abous nations!

Fourthly. The reformers were wrong on the doctrine of baptism because they stil had alot of tradition in their head.
Just like us today. After being a pentacostal for many years I am tody in a baptist church and it took long time for me to get rid of some pentacostal doctrines that are clearly wrong (dispensatinalism etc.)

 2012/5/31 2:41Profile









 Re:

Dear Brother Josef, I think the tables have turned. Years back, right here on SI - it was the non-Calvinists that were being torn apart and this last thread by Spurgeon was similar to what you said of Luther - Spurgeon was writing about those that believe in free-will and called those "enemies".

My concern is keeping people out of the Kingdom. It doesn't have to be just the belief in predestination - it can be legalism - but either way, the results are potentially the same.

On another note is eschatology. I'm not a dispensationalist but I also am not an amillenialist nor a preterist of any type but "the last days" has been a burden the LORD put onto me 27 yrs ago and it's never left me.
Things are getting very bad in this world. I keep a close watch on the alternative News sources and that's my concern. Are we ready for anything.
The Bible gives indication that christian will turn against Christian. These discussions about Calvinism vs Arminianism can be utilized in such a way as to avoid that from happening.
In some churches, the Pastors are being trained with "emergency response teams" and in some cases these are not good. They're being trained on how to get their people onto a bus to be taken where no one will want to go.
I'm keeping this as mild as possible but our Bibles do tell of what will come - but some don't believe that these prophecies are for our generation, that they've either already past long ago, or that they'll be raptured out of here before it gets bad. I watched some videos tonight about the coming digital economic system that's ready to fly and these folks were insiders, saying that people will except it because it will be offered with "forgiveness of all debts" - A New Beginning for the people and financial security as well - no poverty to worry about. It was a very intense documentary done by the New Agers in high places.


Our main focus should be that we not be deceived by what is coming and look at our differences in doctrine as minor when it comes to sticking together and not be of those that turn on one another when the world as we know it changes into something that is unrecognizable. We don't need a repeat in history, where christians are hating Christians and turning one another in, for Any reason.
We need to love one another as never before in Americas history. Or Sweden. Or Macedonia. Everywhere.

Bearmaster knows much about persecution, but we have to set it into our minds that the Word does give indication that christians will turn in and against Christians and pledge to GOD Himself that we won't be caught up in that last days hate mongering. That we'll do everything in our power to stand together in His Love, whether our doctrines are the same or not.

We're living in the last days and caring for one another is what made the First Church Great. I pray we can be like the first Church and not the hate-filled mix that we saw during the Reformation. Let's pray that way.


 2012/5/31 3:18
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: I Reject the Reformers

Quote:
I used to hold to reformation history. I used to call myself a child of the reformation. No more. The protestant reformers persecuted and put to death those I consider the true believers of Jesus Christ. Those being the Anabaptist.


I agree with you about reformation history. The best of men, it seems, were men at best. Google sometime the Münster Rebellion or Peasant's War to get a more panoramic understanding of what was going on back then. No one system is without blemish.

Thank the Lord he does not deal with us as collective groups, but as individuals. Should we not follow His example and approach Him as such, while gleaning along the way the finest meat each group has to offer? Take the best food from all the different serving trays but sit and eat them only at the Lord's table. Refrain from poking around too long at the buffet. You're bound to eventually find something you won't like. And definitely don't ask about the cleanliness of the kitchen's history!

Eat what is agreeable to you at the Lord's table, dear brother, and do it in peace (I Thessalonians 4:11).

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2012/5/31 8:54Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Jesus-Is-God wrote:

"Actually, this is not an excuse for insanity, most especially in a Christian. Tinnitis is a very common ailment. My father has had it since the big guns of IwoJima and he stayed quite sane. I've had it since 1994 and despite what those who don't know me personally may think :), I've stayed sane. Having worked in the medical fields, both my Dad and I both - him being a Dr/Physologist - both of us are very well acquainted with this malady and others that have tinnitis and few Drs can or will treat it because there's no cure."


Allow me to clarify the effects of Tinnitus on Martin Luther. It may be mild in some, and others will suffer in varying degrees toward severe cases of tinnitus.

Martin Luther had a very severe case of Tinnitus, the main symptom of what is known as 'Menieres Disease'.

In Martin Luthers own words: "When I try to work, my head becomes filled with all sorts of whizzing, buzzing, thundering noises." he wrote, and being a religious man, he blamed the devil.

From Public Med:

Martin Luther's diseases are well documented, because he used to discuss them freely in his letters. There is also a wealth of evidence through reports by his friends. Most of his diseases were common and well known to the contemporary physicians, who accordingly interpreted them correctly: bladder stones, chronic constipation, hemorrhoids. Luther's death obviously was due to a coronary thrombosis. During the last 19 years of his life, in addition to these "natural diseases", Luther also suffered from recurring attacks of a peculiar symptomatology.

Luther himself and his friends considered these seizures to be no "natural disease", but Satan punching his flesh, and he compared them to St. Paul's disease (2. Cor. 12). The first of these attacks occurred on July 6, 1527, when Luther was 43 years of age. It began with a roaring tinnitus in his left ear, which increased dramatically and seemed to occupy the left half of his head. Then a state of sickness and collapse followed, however, consciousness was retained throughout the whole period.

After a night's rest all the symptoms had subsided, except the tinnitus, which, from that day on, continued for all the following years in varying intensity. Similar attacks with increase of the tinnitus and vertigo as the leading symptoms, seized Luther at irregular intervals and distressed him extremely. Former investigators of Luther's diseases interpreted these attacks as manifestations of a psychiatric disorder and a chronic inflammatory disease of the middle ear. The present detailed study reveals that it was a typical case of Menière's disease of the left ear manifesting itself more than 330 years before Menière's classical observation.

From Wikipedia - Menieres Disease:

The symptoms of Ménière's are variable; not all sufferers experience the same symptoms. However, so-called "classic Ménière's" is considered to have the following four symptoms:[6]

Attacks of rotational vertigo that can be severe, incapacitating, unpredictable, and last anywhere from minutes to hours,[7] but generally no longer than 24 hours. For some sufferers however, prolonged attacks can occur, lasting from several days to several weeks, often causing the sufferer to be severely incapacitated.[8] This combines with an increase in volume of tinnitus and temporary, albeit significant, hearing loss. Hearing may improve after an attack, but often becomes progressively worse. Nausea, vomiting, and sweating sometimes accompany vertigo, but are symptoms of vertigo, and not of Ménière's.[9]

Fluctuating, progressive, unilateral (in one ear) or bilateral (in both ears) hearing loss, usually in lower frequencies.[10] For some, sounds can appear tinny or distorted, and patients can experience unusual sensitivity to noises.[11]

Unilateral or bilateral tinnitus.

A sensation of fullness or pressure in one or both ears.

-------------------

Anyone can see the difference between Luther's early well reasoned early writings requesting major reforms in the ugly practices of the RCC and his pro-Jewish views, and his later writing that were positively anti-Jewish and paranoidal.



--------------------------------------

Now you raise a different matter, which obviously effects your view of Luther.


Jesus-Is-God: "Luther was not fully sound doctrinally and GOD only knows the rest, but the things he believed that were not Biblical and the parts of the RCC that he held onto, wouldn't help one's state of mind."

And who is fully sound doctrinally? No one is saved by because all their biblical beliefs is 100% accurate We are saved solely through our acceptance of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of all our Sins. Upon accepting our Saviour's gift to us, we receive the Holy Spirit, God dwelling in us, transforming our very nature day by day as we walk with God. It is God who is perfroming a work in us, that we may naturally do the good that God created us to do, that our joy may be complete.

And on your last point: "If I'm not mistaken - there were those before Luther and the others mentioned along the lines of Calvin - that broke from the RCC but were not Augustinians nor Calvinistic in there beliefs."

I do not know what you have against Calvin or Augustine. The only thing I know they had in common is that the Bible reveals that all who are saved were predestined to be saved, as the Apostle Paul puts it, before God Created the Cosmos and the Kingdom, God predestined His children to purified in the fiery furnace of the Cosmos, and predestined His children to enter the Kingdom.

Jesus said His sheep knows him and they come to Him when they hear His voice. He assured the Father that He had not lost even one of His sheep.

Predestination is a fact. Some complainers against predestination say "why preach the gospel at if all are already predestination to be saved." We do so because Jesus gave us the Great Commision that we speak His words throughout the world, so that His children will hear their master's voice that they will recognize, and they will follow Him. This is the great commision given unto us.


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Arthur Biele

 2012/5/31 10:04Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Jesus-Is-God wrote "If I'm not mistaken - there were those before Luther and the others mentioned along the lines of Calvin - that broke from the RCC but were not Augustinians nor Calvinistic in there beliefs. That the breaking from the RCC would have happened even without them."

First of all, Luther was a a learned catholic, a well respected and popular Catholic Priest, who saw the abuses of the Catholic Chruch and spoke out against them.

So when Luther abondoned the Catholic Church, he opened the door for many catholics to have the courage to leave the Catholic Church, His marriage to a Nun had a great effect on the psyche of Catholics, the effect gave them the courage to leave the Catholic Church.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2012/5/31 10:10Profile









 Re:

Hi Brother Art. No lengthy reply here. Just wanted to clarify why I wrote what I did about Luther's health issues that I am Very familiar with, without going into details.

It was this part that I was addressing, regarding his tinnitis, etc..

From your post: "By about 1529 or so, Luther had to hire a bodyguard to protect people around him from being viciously attacked by Martin Luther."

I had heard everything that you posted later on this thread about all of his health issues in the past.
This quote of his behavior is not consistent with his physiological disease[s].

eta -
Main point I meant to say - with tinnitis and Menieres being maladies that are on the increase, due to environmental problems - I just didn't want anyone to 'fear' that if they have it or acquired those problems, that they'll need to be supervised so as not to attack others.
From my own and the experiences of all that I know with these two problems - though it is difficult to never hear silence again and the noise level and pitches vary and can be quite loud - one can learn to cope and none that I have ever heard of became 'dangerous' nor had dramatic changes in their over-all beliefs.

Again, I only state these things to prevent this misunderstanding of these problems from scaring someone half to death if they either have these things or acquire them. Hope that's understood.


Bless you!

 2012/5/31 11:27
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: Josef83

RE: josef83 wrote
"Firstly what I see today is mostly the "reformers" getting persecuted on bloggs and on the internet.
I have seen slanders on John Piper and on our church here in Sweden just because we are reformed. We dont attack back we just bless them."

I commend you for not attacking back and just blessing them.
I have to say from most of what I see has been just the opposit, just google Charles Finny and see what pops up. People believe just because he did not find that the Bible teaches the five points of the tulip that they have a justified reason to say he had a Demon.
Have you not heard someone called an
Arminian or a follower of pelagian just because they believe that Gods predestination follows His forknowledge and infinite wisdom?

RE:Josef83 wrote
"I mean Romans chapter 9 is so clear and 9:6 is so clear that it aint talking abous nations!"

I agree with you that it is not talking about nations, I believe that is a weak argument. But it also is not the central theme of Romans nor is it the central theme of the Bible as what Hypertheolgy teaches. Read Romans Ch 1-8 to give the context for ch 9 or even within chapter 9 Paul gives the (reason) that Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. v 32 "Wherefore? (Because!!!) they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law."
There is always a (reason) a (purpose) a (For this cause)a (because of) with God. We do not understand all of it but we know His purposes are perfect.
"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

RE: josef83 wrote "Fourthly. The reformers were wrong on the doctrine of baptism because they stil had alot of tradition in their head."

They Did more than just disagree with those that believed in believers Baptism!



 2012/5/31 12:12Profile





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