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  I Reject the Reformers

There comes a time when a stand must be taken for the gospel. Thus I take such a stand. At the outset I reject and renounce the traditional teaching of reformation history. I reject Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Zwingly and others of their ilk. For theirs was a teaching of the head and not of the heart.

I used to hold to reformation history. I used to call myself a child of the reformation. No more. The protestant reformers persecuted and put to death those I consider the true believers of Jesus Christ. Those being the Anabaptist.

I believe these precious saints capturered the true spirit of first century Christianity by following Jesus. They died for their faith in Jesus. Many at the hands at the papist. But quite a few at the hands of the reformers. Because of this I reject reformed teaching. I cannot consider it Biblical.

I will stand with the persecuted in times past and times present. If I be persecuted may God count me worthy to suffer for him.

God grant me grace to live as those early saints did and died for Jesus. God grant me grace to testify of Jesus in those final hours.

Posted by Bearmaster.

 2012/5/30 9:13
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2660
Nottingham, England

 Re: I Reject the Reformers


If you reject them, you reject them. Why does the world have to know? And if you do reject them, what of it?

Don't you suppose there is enough strife, arguments etc on the forums, with inciting more?

What is it in the word of God, that you have read, to make you post this?

It's sad to read this, but hardly surprising or original.

 2012/5/30 9:22Profile









 Re: Enid

Sister please listen to Denny Kenniston's series on the History of the Anabaptist. There you will find your answer. Following Jesus is controversial in itself as he came not to bring peace but a sword. His sword is his word.

Bearmaster.

 2012/5/30 10:13









 Re:

As with any story... there are two sides. (with this one there are three sides!) Be careful not to fall prey to revisionist history from either side. That would be very foolish.

Instead of relying on whoever Denny Kenniston is... or any other modern historian (most of which are amazingly wrong in what they present), you need to go to the original sources and read that. If you dont know what the term "original sources" means... google the meaning.

The Reformers wrote and wrote and wrote... so it's best to actually read their own words, and not bother with modern day historians who often times take things out of context, or have an agenda. (I dont know who Denny Kenniston is, so I'm not saying thats what he did/does)

When you read the writings of the Reformers, the writings of the ana-baptists... and others in authority back then... you get drastically different views on what took place... and all of them different from anything you'll read written in this century.

And now you claim to have figured it all out? Good for you.

You claim that they taught from the head and not the heart, yet they have all been dead for 500 years. How can you possibly sit in judgement of their hearts? Thats an amazing statement to make.

I agree with enid. This thread serves no purpose.

And I doubt anyone cares if you reject the reformers. I know I dont.

:-)

Even tho you may not agree with "Calvinism", you actually owe much of what you believe about scripture to the Reformers, particularly Calvin. So-called "Calvinism" is only a part of what he taught.

The Reformers also took the Bible away from the clergy and put it in the hands of the people to read and interpret for themselves. As a result a mass exodus (no pun intended!) from the Catholic Church began.

Do you reject that too?

Krispy

 2012/5/30 10:29
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: KrispyKrittr

RE: Krispy Krittr wrote
"The Reformers wrote and wrote and wrote... so it's best to actually read their own words, and not bother with modern day historians who often times take things out of context, or have an agenda."

Amen I agree. What disturbes me is not what others write about the reformers since most Christian historians are pro Reformers but What the reformers themselves wrote.

have you read The Jews and their Lies by Martin Luther??
or the treatise against the Anabaptists Against the Libertines by John Calvin??

 2012/5/30 11:03Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2660
Nottingham, England

 Re:


Bearmaster,

If you don't agree with the quote, why quote it? And, to suggest listening to the series shows you agree.

All I can see is that this will in no was edify any one who reads it.

 2012/5/30 11:36Profile
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 527
America's Heartand

 Re:

Krispy Wrote

Quote:
The Reformers wrote and wrote and wrote... so it's best to actually read their own words



FINALLY something you and I agree on Krispy (i exaggerate... I know we agree on far, far more than we disagree on Krispy. Someday we will meet, I will buy you a huge steak dinner, and we will walk out of the restaurant as good friends. )

That aside, I do agree with Krispy's statement. I also agree with proudpapa that

Quote:
What disturbes me is not what others write about the reformers since most Christian historians are pro Reformers but What the reformers themselves wrote



If you read their own words it is chilling to the bone! It appears that the perhaps the only real reason Calvin makes a break is to form his own little "Vatican City Swiss Style". He then sets himself up as basically the "Pope" of his Vatican and then squashes all opposition by persecutions, jailings, and old fashioned murder of those who disagree with any of his theology. Not sure how he exactly "reformed" from Rome there... it was just that in his Rome he (Calvin) was the pope.

Calvin stated
Quote:
"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death, knowingly and willingly incur their guilt. It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for His Church." John Calvin



So... it wasn't enough that he puts to death folks for anything or any reason he sees fit including disagreeing with him theologically about anything..... he goes on to say that if you do not agree with his tactics YOU should be put to death as well. WHAT?!?!?! The key to remember is that you were a heretic IF JOHN CALVIN SAID YOU WERE. He set himself as the arbitrator of who was and wasn't a heretic.


He executed 57 people, and excommunicated 66. He also jailed a great many more for no reason other than tiny differences in theology. He even surpassed Augustine in severe treatment!! Like Augustine, Calvin quotes Lk 14:23 to support and justify persecuting and punishing heretics.... of course it is again heretics by Calvin's definition only.

Realize that some of these were killed or persecuted simply because they did not agree with infant baptism. Do you get that?!?!? John Calvin would martyr (kill, murder) you if you disagreed with him about infant baptism... or one of a myriad of minor theological issues.

John Calvin became a one man judge, jury, and execution squad of the christians. He even sent out his own form of KGB to spy on and find folks not cow towing to his minute theological rules or leanings so he could jail or kill them. Other times he records his plots to get people into his jurisdiction that disagreed with him so as to jail or murder them.

Then Calvin incredibly attributes his persecution and murder of christians to "God's will". Of these horrible actions Calvin states
Quote:
It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule



It is not clear at all that many of the reformers did anything with a regard to helping the people. It may have been done at times simply to give them a base to use against Rome in a selfish effort to establish their own little Vatican City in Switzerland.

I agree with proudpapa. It isn't those who write after Calvin, or others, that concern me. It is what Calvin himself, and others, actually wrote themselves. It is further bothersome that many who follow them are either ignorant of their words... or worse, they willingly choose to ignore them.

So yes, as Krispy says, READ THE ACTUAL WORDS OF CALVIN, AND OTHERS.. it is a tale that would be worthy of inclusion in Foxxs Book Of martyrs. It is among other things a story of a man named Calvin who with systematic forethought murdered and persecuted followers of Christ that dared to ever think anything other than exactly what he told them to. Yes, read for yourself... then what will we do with that knowledge?

 2012/5/30 11:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
have you read The Jews and their Lies by Martin Luther??
or the treatise against the Anabaptists Against the Libertines by John Calvin??



Yea, actually I have. Do you also understand the context of what was going on that prompted those writings?

Now, Luther was known for his bombast, and many times apologized for the words he spoke. But underneath his bombast was a man who truly was touched by grace.

Were the Reformers perfect? Of course not. But which of us can stand 500 in the future and cast stones at them.

As soon as someone on this forum can write a tome that even comes close to "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" or "The Bondage of the Will"... no one should be attempting to sit in judgement over these men.

You shouldnt be sitting in judgement over your brothers here.

Everytime these names come up people always bring up the same accusations against these men. I would say that if you do not know all of the details... then accusing a dead brother of things you do not know for a fact to be true is just as sinful as accusing the brother sitting next to you on Sunday morning.

John Calvin never had anyone executed. John Calvins role in Geneva has been greatly exaggerated.

Krispy

 2012/5/30 11:50









 Re:

Solomon... I have nothing against you, brother.

I like my steak medium.

Krispy

 2012/5/30 11:53
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Hi Krispy you wrote:

"John Calvin never had anyone executed. John Calvins role in Geneva has been greatly exaggerated."

Can you expand on this statement a little.

Thanks, Russ

 2012/5/30 12:01Profile





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