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Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re: Hi! An Interesting Question

Sin is first and foremost a negative spiritual power. Sin should not be viewed as an "activity" as much as it should be perceived as an "inspiration". So, it is that this man was inspired (perhaps a better word 'compelled') to commit this evil. I say compelled because the power of sin announces itself first an inspiration ... a thought.

An individual has the opportunity to take possession of the inspiration/thought and choose to make it his own or not. No man is held accountable for the multitude of negative thoughts which might inspire him throughout any given day or hour. He is only accountable for those which he voluntarily takes possession of and conceives by cooperating with them.

For instance, it is indeed true that Satan does not know our thoughts; it's not as if he can read our minds. Why is this? Simply put: our "inner man" (secret place) is only completely naked to the Heavenly Father Himself. (This can be awkwardly illustrated by the privacy of a husband and wife relationship). The other reason is that those thoughts which the evil one can rightly know, he is incapable of believing ... having faith in. (Otherwise, the Lord would never have been crucified and triumphed over evil.)

So, it is that this man plainly took hold of inspirations and acted on them. Eventually, the inspirations became a torrent of compulsion which devoured the man's spirit ... which contains the core of his will-power. He became unable to resist the demonic onslaught. He became "one" with the evil powers.

We know AIDS as Acquired Immunity Deficiency Syndrome. But Christians also know something akin to AFRAIDS.
Acquired Failures Related to the Immune Deficiency of the human Spirit.

This is precisely what happened with this man. He allowed the inspirations of the evil one to damage the immunity of his "inner being" to such a degree that he eventually came under their compelling dominance.

Now, the added item about whether he enters into the Kingdom of God, I presume your mistaken choice of the term actually intends to mean "heaven".
Yes, he remains eligible.
God is ONLY and PERFECTLY good. His desire is always that man should have a share of eternity in His Kingdom ... this includes EVERY MAN. The only occasion of an individual not entering the Kingdom of God (the Light side of the Kingdom of Heaven) is because the evil powers have the legal right to drag their possessions with them as they are thrown in the bottomless pit. It is not for nothing that the Bible clearly states that we have been "ransomed" from this possibility because our ownership has changed ... we are no longer slaves to sin ... no longer eligible for the wages of sin.
By the way: God is ONLY good and so we would do wrong to believe that God pays the wages of Sin. God rewards those who are His while the evil one has the legal right to render payment to those serving him.

Hope this helps! :)


 2012/5/28 0:00Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
Also, his wife knew about this "secret" and the senior pastor knew as well and since he was 'repentant' they allowed him to be an elder of the church.



Someone needs to define what repentance is on a biblically sound foundation, the fact of the matter is the word has been so watered down that anyone who voices a semi contrite heart on a matter is deemed repentant. This man was not repentant, he had confessed his sin but in no way wanted to make restitution for the sin, this is not repentance.

If we look at Zacchaeus we get a biblical definition of what repentance is. Upon conviction by the Spirit the person changes to the point where God moves on their heart not only confess, but to act (Zacchaeus paid back 4 times what he extorted from the people).

A repentant man in this case would have went not only confessed his sin, but would have went to the police as well. The elders involved should have went to the police with this heinous crime and told them everything that they knew. This is a requirement for worldly counselors, should the body of Christ function below the worldly requirements? God forbid.

Peace :-)

 2012/5/28 17:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
A repentant man in this case would have went not only confessed his sin, but would have went to the police as well. The elders involved should have went to the police with this heinous crime and told them everything that they knew. This is a requirement for worldly counselors, should the body of Christ function below the worldly requirements? God forbid.

God forbid?! do you even know what your saying?

If a man repents of his sin and makes reconciliation for his wrong doing with those that he has wronged, there is no reason to call the police. Leave the world out of it as much as possible.

This all could have been avoided had the brother gone to Dad and demanded that he go and speak to those he wronged, there could have been healing brought into this family.

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

This could have all been done discreetly, by bringing in the world, the rest of us Christians become the laughing stock, the world looks at us as no different than they.

 2012/5/28 20:43
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
If a man repents of his sin and makes reconciliation for his wrong doing with those that he has wronged, there is no reason to call the police. Leave the world out of it as much as possible.

This all could have been avoided had the brother gone to Dad and demanded that he go and speak to those he wronged, there could have been healing brought into this family.



What kind of fantasyland do you live in? Let's play this out:

"Hi dad I know that you are raping my sisters, could you please stop?"

How ridiculous is that?

Counselors in the US are REQUIRED to report lawbreaking like this to the authorities, should they choose not to, they lose their license.

The brothers in this situation acted more correctly than the wife, elders, pastors and everyone else.

The church that Christ died for is not a shield for unrepentant pedophiles, I'm very aware what the word says about this, it says to respect the laws and authorities that are above us (Romans 13:1-7).

The scripture that you mentioned above is pertaining to a man who has relations with his dad's wife (a vile thing indeed), there were no minors involved and there was no Roman law prohibiting it so lets compare apples with apples.

 2012/5/28 21:30Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
Also, his wife knew about this "secret" and the senior pastor knew as well and since he was 'repentant' they allowed him to be an elder of the church.



Hi Approved,

One last thing, as I detailed in the post above the man was not 'repentant' he made a 'confession' there is a big difference between the two. Confession without repentance is worthless.

"She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." ~Genesis 3:6b

The above is confession without repentance, and we all know how that turned out.

EVE: "Hi Adam, I ate this fruit. I know it was a wicked thing but here, have some."

ADAM: Ok, no worries...

 2012/5/28 21:41Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, the example of adam and eve does not work at all. adam was innocent and was not under the old covenant or the new and only had 1 commandment that he had to live by. the tree of the knowlege of good and evil(the tree of religion)was and still is the problem with him and us... as he ate of this tree ,he rejected the tree of life(christ). they had no idea this was as wicked as you say and repentance after the fact would not have changed a thing.true repentance has nothing to do with sin.true repentance is death to self and self rule. altars are places of sacrifice and you die there(reckon yourselves dead unto sin and alive in Christ)He must be Lord.jimp

 2012/5/28 22:26Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

I was somewhat disturbed by your claim that repentance is somehow validated by volunteering to subject oneself to the punishing authorities.
Perhaps, I have more credibility with this issue because I have been in the identical situation. Prior my hearing the Gospel of Repentance, I was a professional thief. At one point in my life a prosecutor stood up in Court to say: "Your honor, there isn't a building in this city -- indeed, in this country! --- that this man can't get in to."

I heard the Gospel in 1969 through a David Wilkerson Outreach ministry. Afterwards, I read the Nicky Cruz book titled "Run, Baby Run!" where Nicky himself offered the same advice as yourself here. Such advice bewildered me then as much as it does this day reading your comments here.

In any event, I prayed very much about the issue at the time. I was very willing to follow through with whatever was required to begin a new life with Jesus. The answer I received was not after your poorly informed advice as stated here.
As a matter of fact, I wrestled long and hard with the issue and sought advice from multiple Christians. Some were agreeing with your sentiment; but the majority were not.
One Pastor told me about a woman who had come to his office that same morning to confess a problem with adultery. The Pastor said to me: "The only difference between that woman's sin and your own is that adultery is not eligible for imprisonment". He continued: "While you were dressing up in black clothing to enter a building in the darkness of night, this woman was putting on her best dress and committing sin too".
That settled the question for me.
Sin is not like walking through a Walmart Store and some sins are on sale while others are not. Sin does not possess a value on its own. Sin is a deviant power that attaches to one's desires and becomes conceived or made visible in the world. It can be jealousy, rage, unforgiveness, adultery and and, yes, theft too.
All I can say is that I'm hoping that you are not a Christian counselor because your advice would unwittingly injure alot of people.

 2012/5/28 23:09Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

blayne, i am talking about turning your life over to Jesus.jimp

 2012/5/29 0:12Profile
Blayne
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 274


 Re:

Hi! Jimp
That's a unique unusual Nick that I've never bumped into before.
Ummmm, I don't know where it is that I should be looking to see where you are "talking about turning your life over to Jesus" ... I'm new to these Discussion Forums, sorry 'bout that.
I was simply trying to reply to a Post here about a supposed pedophile and someone's advice that he should volunteer to hand himself over to the constabulary authorities.
Repentance is often mistaken to be synonymous with renewal; healing too can often be mistaken for restoration. We so easily throw around terms and words without giving a thought to their origin or true scriptural meaning. Such is the persistent activity of the parrots among us. :)

 2012/5/29 0:40Profile









 Re: Entanglement with the World

I very much doubt that any pastor or elder in a church in the USA, UK or many other countries has a choice in LAW as to whether they can take a spiritual attitude on the issue at the heart of this post. Whether we realise it or not such a position would itself be a dereliction of a legal duty of care which the LAW demands of anyone who comes into contact with children in a public place.

In this the LAW has become a snare of the world to saints. Seeing that the LAW protecting children is a modern reality, perhaps only 200 years old from its beginning, helps make sense of this. Most child protection laws are less than 50 years old.

Perhaps it would be better and more glorifying to God in Heaven if these terrible crimes can be reconciled privately. But only if it is a real reconciliation in which all the family members have a part. I fear that without a singular move of God Himself that can't happen. Today even if it did happen, the pastor and the elder would still have to go to the police and make LEGAL restitution if they were to uphold the LAW.

It isn't that the LAW enforcers themselves don't understand that private restitution is possible. Many of them do understand it. Some LAW enforcement agencies would privately welcome the burden being removed from the State. But they can't ever say that because the LAW itself doesn't allow for it. Like Darius they are caught in their own LAW and must abide by the LAW. Which is become a snare.

Quote:
Then these commissioners and satraps came by agreement to the king and spoke to him as follows: King Darius, live forever! All the commissioners of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the high officials and the governors have consulted together that the king should establish a statute and enforce an injunction that anyone who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, shall be cast into the lions den. Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document so that it may not be changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked. Therefore King Darius signed the document, that is, the injunction.
10 Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously. Daniel 6:6-10.



Replace Satraps with Sociologists and you have the picture. In the USA The Chicago School of Sociology began in 1926 or thereabouts. It has been a profound influence ever since. The power of this influence can in no small part be understood by the men and women who drove it. They were God haters and rebellious. They consistently uncovered, to the public gaze, dreadful crimes by a few, to the demand of LAWS. In the end we have come to this. We need more wisdom sometimes to understand why God has allowed this and like Zaccheus, and Daniel we need to learn to respond appropriately. Daniel prayed realising that he was headed for trouble. Zaccheus gave half his wealth to the poor and was willing to restore 4 fold any thefts he had entered into. If today we have to be a part of another man's wickedness by realsing that God has forgiven him (If it is so) then we will have to rush to our room and pray knowing that we ourselves may be carted off to prison as well as the LAW breaker. Or if you prefer it and find it easier then just hand him over yourself. Which attitude do you believe is more pleasing to God?

Andrew

 2012/5/29 3:41





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