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Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3393
East TN (for now)

 Re: Dangers Of Signs and Wonders In The Last Days


I haven't read the other responses but wanted to discuss something Zac said. I listened to it and agreed with the majority of what he had to say and I hope there is freedom to disagree with this man of God; not to be argumentative but to show another side of this phenomenon that perhaps he has not experienced. It seems that he has not had the same experience that I have had but does that make mine wrong? I hope not and I don’t believe so because I don’t think he is wrong.

I grew up in a church where people fell in the Spirit, it did not happen at every single meeting but if someone felt led of the Spirit to fall, they had the freedom to and was not looked upon as being ‘deceived’ or unbiblical. I even have fallen in the Spirit a few times and all the negative things that Zac said about it... did not happen to me. I was not pushed. I was not hypnotized. I was not responding psychologically to something expected of me. And our church does not believe that ‘catching’ is a gift either.

My experience with Christ and the Holy Spirit on this subject is quite different from Zac’s and I don’t make light of people who DON’T fall in the Spirit, like he does of those who do. I love Zac Poonen’s sermons and his teachings and frankly, expected more grace from him on this subject. But maybe there are areas in me that if he and I talked, he would expect more grace out of me too! So, it goes both ways.

Again, I do not mean to be argumentative and would like to point out that the only reason I responded was something he said at 3:09... I don’t think anyone caught what he said there about falling in the Spirit, “THEY CAN IF THEY WANT TO BUT THEY DON’T HAVE TO.” People have overlooked that what I believe is a true statement.

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2012/5/17 17:50Profile









 Re:

If signs and wonders are such a deception in the end times then why did the first century Christians ask God to stretch out his hand to heal and do miraculous signs and wonders in the name of his holy servant Jesus?

In Acts 4:29-30 the early believers pray there would be a bold proclamation of the word. Then they ask God to do signs and wonders. I find this most intriguing in light of the discussion that is ensuing here.

Could it be the early church had more faith to believe God could fo autbetic miracles. They even asked for miracles. But we would silence anyone for praying such a prayer today.

So I ask you forum. Why did the early church ask for signs and wonders and we consider such a prayer taboo today?

Bearmaster.

 2012/5/17 20:29
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Again, bearmaster, you are assuming something that NO ONE is saying.

No one is saying that "signs and wonders are such a deception in the end times." They are saying that FALSE signs and wonders CAN BE a deception. This is completely validated by Scripture (I included a few verses in my last post).

Signs and wonders are supposed to follow believers.
Believers are not supposed to follow signs and wonders.

Yes, there are legitimate signs and wonders. In fact, EVERYTHING that God does is a "wonder" and He can use anything to be a "sign." However, we no longer have to "cast lots" for direction or to validate our faith. Rather, we have the Holy Spirit who leads us and guides us into all truth.

I think that this is becoming something of a straw man. No one is arguing AGAINST "signs and wonders." No one is saying that we shouldn't pray for the Lord to move in such a way. The article is simply cautioning believers about phony signs and wonders...and about the danger of chasing after them in the first place.

In fact, we should pray for the Lord to do His will upon this Earth. However, we should be careful about every claim -- and even every apparent "sign or wonder" -- because we are told to do so by the Word of God.

I hope that this clarifies the matter.


_________________
Christopher

 2012/5/17 20:41Profile









 Re:

Chris the title of the thread is Dangers of signs and wonders in the last days. Nothing is said about false signs and wonders. That may have been Greg's intention to convey such.

But anytime mention is made of signs and wonders in this forum the tendacy is to quote Mat.7:21-23 and cry false prophets. Ok. If we are going to believe that every miracle is false then I will not argue against the prevailing belief system of this forum.

I have asked why the early church asked God for signs and wonders but we decry such a prayer. I might add third world countries pray for signs and wonders. But we speak against them here.

I go back to my initial observation. The church in America is a post reformation, rstionalistic institution. It is more comfortable with presuppositions and arguments then a living gospel. This also breeds an atmosphere of disbelief. We will not have to worry about the deception of counterfeit signs and wonders. Our unbelief will not allow us to believe in the real miracles should they occur.

Bearmaster standing down.

 2012/5/17 22:12
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi bearmaster,

Quote:

Chris the title of the thread is Dangers of signs and wonders in the last days. Nothing is said about false signs and wonders. That may have been Greg's intention to convey such.



I suppose that Greg may have expected that people would actually read the article rather than interpret it solely from the title. Signs and wonders can be from the Lord or from the evil one. The same is true of angels, music, and even words. The point of the article is outlined, well, in the article.

No one is saying that signs and wonders are bad. It is the concentrated pursuit of them in an non-Biblical way that can be danger for some people. And, yes, there are false signs and lying wonders -- that are truly miraculous -- that can still cause the hearts of some to stray from the Lord if they aren't focused correctly upon Christ. The Scriptures indicate that this is something that the Antichrist will use with certain effectiveness.

As for the forum: It isn't wise to say such things about the sentiment of believers at SermonIndex -- especially given your limited time spent here. We don't speak against them here as your state. Many of us have often shared testimonies that describe the Lord moving in miraculous ways today. However, I would welcome anyone to "test" whatever miraculous claim or manifestation that I testify of. I wouldn't confuse that with "speaking against" it either.

You are making bold statements -- even stereotypes -- of the Church. Remember, dear brother, that you are speaking of the "body" and Bride of Christ. The Church should be cautious about deception. In fact, we are commanded by the New Testament to "test everything," "test the spirits" and examine the Scriptures to validate what we see, hear or are taught. This doesn't reflect a "lack of faith" -- but a pure faith in Christ...and Christ alone. It is placing God above ALL else -- including those things that may have the appearance of the "miraculous."

Earlier, I mentioned the stories of individuals who have claimed to have visited (or have had "visions") of Heaven and Hell. Oddly enough, most of those accounts conflict with one another in terms of details. So, are most of those people lying? Are most of those individuals simply making their stories up?

Paul spoke of a man who was caught up to the third heavens and saw things that are "unlawful" (or not permitted) to speak about (II Corinthians 12:1-4). Yet, I have heard at least a dozen different accounts of individuals who boast of what they claim to have seen -- and their accounts differ from nearly everyone else who claims the same experience.

So, we have to "test" those claims. The primer for that test is ONLY via the Word of God.

So, yes, I suspect that most individuals here would attest to the fact that God still operates in supernatural ways. However, not all apparently "supernatural" things are from God. In addition, we shouldn't be chasing after only the physical manifestations (miracles, signs, wonders, prophesies, etc...) that we believe to be supernatural. Our pursuit should be Jesus. The greatest experience in our lives should be our time spent with the Lord.

Yes, it is wonderful when the Lord does wonders. However, we shouldn't be moved by such things -- because they are mere works of God that He performs as He sees fit. By faith, we know that the Lord is moving on our behalf even in the things that we cannot see or attribute as "supernatural" signs and wonders.

In other words, we should be grateful for whatever the Lord does for and through us. However, the pursuit is Christ...and not just the things that we assume God to have done. Remember, Jesus said that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign. For believers, we don't seek the sign -- but the Living God who is not limited to the laws of this world.

Yes, we should pray that God use us in any way that he wants. However, we should be careful that our lives are not spent in serving a "magical" God. He is the Omnipotent Lord of all creation. He doesn't do tricks. Everything that He does is miraculous and the signs of His existence are evident to anyone who seeks Him.

Still, we can pray for the sick to be healed. We can have faith (and freedom from fear) in regard to being poisoned or bitten by snakes. We can -- and should -- pray to be vessels used by God in the gifts distributed by the Spirit. Yet, in all of these things, the focus should be on Christ and testing all that we say, hear, see or do by the refining purity of His Word.


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Christopher

 2012/5/17 22:43Profile
Trekker
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Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re: Dangers Of Signs and Wonders In The Last Days

QUOTE: "But the concern is slain in the Spirit phenomenon. Something that is not seen in the early church, acts of the apostles nor in church history till of late."==GREG



AMEN! I once-decades ago-- attended the Assembly of God tradition and for a season they held one of their so-called "revivals" where there was MUCH made of being "slain the the spirit". I was a babe in Christ and, thinking maybe i lacked something others had but yet suspicious of this stuff, i went up to stand in line to test if i would be "slain in the spirit" with all the others as this supposed "man of God" with a "slaying" ministry touched each person on the forehead. A Lutheran pastor's wife also went up with me. Of all the people who fell down (BACKWARDS), only I and the Lutheran pastor's wife remained standing. This pastor's wife was a humble, Godly woman. Yet another woman i knew, who i later discovered to be exceedingly proud,rude, selfish, arrogant, boastful, and full of herself (always bragging about how she was supposedly "full of the Holy Spirit") was one of the first to fall down "slain". I think that pretty much says it all. There is NO scriptural evidence for this circus act whatsoever. I also agree completely with your other 6 points.

 2012/5/18 5:59Profile









 Re:

Those who opposed the miracles in Jesus day were the Jewish religious leadership. I see those who are opposing the miracles of Christ in this time are the established evangelical church. Most notedly the church in America.

While we are so busy explaining away the working of the Spirit and successfully putting out his fire, the Spirit is operating with greater freedom in what we call the 10/40 window. In this area we will see true revival and the gospel working. But we will not see it in America because we have created the atmosphere of unbelief.

Down through history any suthetic experience of Christ has been dicounted by the religionist. This was even true of the Anabaptist who lived out Christ-centered lives among the Papist and the Protestants. Both camps would commend the quality of life these saints lived..But said they were decieved. That is what I hear now. Like we believe the Spirit can do miracles. But to dare believe such you are quite decieved.

Thus it may be the saints in the third world who will be the 'fools for Christ' who will advance his kingdom purposes. God frantic that a few of us here will be those 'fools for Jesus' to spread his gospel.

Bearmaster, a fool for Jesus, standing down.



Bearnaster standing down.

 2012/5/18 6:17









 Re:

Brother Bear,

I agree with your observation and declaration concerning the American "church" in general. However the true church in America knows that signs and wonders are a part of God's work in the world.

Generaly in America we do not need God cuz we have so many arms of the flesh to lean on.

I am continuly wanting to walk in simplicity of Faith in God alone to provide. I have to die daily to the arm of the flesh to live in the Spirit to see this happening in me.

In other area's of the world we here of the signs and wonders cuz they are generally more apt to simply believe on the Lord. Plus God needs to reach them becuase of the overwhelming laws against proclamation of the Gospel etc.

I appreciate your emphasis and fire on this .

But I would ask you to see that several have made an attempt here to balance out your understanding of what Greg origianially posted.

God bless, John

 2012/5/18 6:31
revival4finl
Member



Joined: 2012/2/14
Posts: 5


 Re: Dangers Of Signs and Wonders In The Last Days

The danger has been around the time of Moses, if not even before. Egyptian sorcerers were performing similar miracles than God through Moses, but always God did something greater than the devil.

So it was always when OT prophets lived, devil performed things that were misleading and deceiving people to worship idols, but God always performed something greater through His prophets.

When Jesus came, He performed the greatest miracles ever, and apostles after Him were vessels for God to show His glory through miracles in powerful way, for the kingdom of God is not in words but power.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever and as much theres still lost souls, He still wants to save, and as theres sick people, He wants to heal, and poor, He wants to take care of poor.

He healed all who came to Him and needed healing. Bible uses the word "all" very often, when its about healing.

Today He is the very same Son of God who healed all when He was here bodily, but now when He is here through the Holy Spirit, He is same.

Devil can never win God in performing miracles, so it should be as it was in the days of old. I am concerned about that, that it seems that the devil performs nowadays so similar miracles than God performs through some believers. Always when I ask in my heart "why", I remember a scripture, where disciples could not tell the demon to go out of one person, and Jesus is rebuking them for not having faith, and telling that this kind leaves only through fasting and praying, and that if we had faith, even little one, we could say to mountain to throw itself to sea, and it would happen to us. From my own experience I believe that fasting and praying increases my faith, so its linked to faith we need.

I have seen some miracles what God has performed in my life and through my ministry, and what I've learned, faith is connected to it and fasting and praying helps it very much. And of course, preaching gospel before praying for sick for example, as Jesus did. He first preached, then healed.

In the word of God there are some mysteries and secrets I believe God wants to reveal us, Bible is such a treasure. And one of those secrets is the secret of faith of Jesus in us, which is connected to miracles. God will not share His glory with devil and He is seeking vessels, He is seeking hearts that want to live in holiness and hearts that are willing to fast and pray and obey Him, and listen to Him before His word in prayer so He can use us to do greater things for His glory than how devil uses his servants. It is a sad thing that the devil seems to be more miraculous than Jesus Christ, and something must happen to that situation, for God's glory, and to let people have a REAL chance to believe the gospel and repent. How can one believe the gospel if all things speak against it? We must have things that speak for it.

Edit: sorry for my mistakes in english language.

 2012/5/18 6:50Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
There is NO scriptural evidence for this circus act whatsoever. I also agree completely with your other 6 points.



I agree 100%. Though you'll still find many who will promote it because of their subjective experience, even though Paul warned the early church not to exceed what was written. Completely ripe for end days deception.

 2012/5/18 7:53Profile





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