SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Purpose Driven Thread

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
pray4boise
Member



Joined: 2004/1/29
Posts: 1


 Re: The Purpose Driven Thread

As a pastor I have been very interested in what comes down the pike, mostly to see what the temperature of the Church is in America. I have read the Purpose Driven Church and Purpose Driven Life books by Rick Warren.

I must say that in order to understand the motives behind the PD Life you must read the PD Church book first. My estimation of these materials is as follows;

If there was no Holy Spirit and it was upon us as a Church to promote and drive our local Church to growth, I would say Warren has shown us how it should be done. It is the best of the worlds marketing and research.

However if you believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and you believe that the Lord adds to the Church daily, such as should be saved, then this program is not for you or your church.

David, you might remember, put the Ark of God on a cart just like the Philistines did. It was more efficient than God's way (stopping every few steps to worship and sacrifice, while bearing the ark on the priests shoulders) it was the latest technique but somebody was killed because it wasn’t God’s way.

If you are interested in a good book on Church Growth, I would recommend the Book of Acts. After we have a solid grip on God’s word then we will begin to realize that it is God’s church and he will add to it as he moves His people by His Spirit. Growth of believers is the most important thing not growth in numbers. If we are found faithful God will bring the numbers.

Recently two pastors in India were discussing church growth and the numbers who had attended their meetings. An older wiser Christian interrupted the men and said, “My brothers, it is time we stop living in the book of numbers and start living in the book of Acts!”

In His grace,

Pray4boise


_________________
Mike

 2005/3/9 12:20Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: pride and self-esteem

I saw this posted on a blog yesterday and was enthralled with this whole idea of pride and self-esteem and sin. It is worth reading and makes you think twice. it is not your normal anti- purpose Driven but shows where some more gray areas are. I am still thinking on it all.

------

There is an incredibly interesting book out by Intervarsity Press called Sin, Pride, and Self-Acceptance by Terry D. Cooper. The book categorizes two schools of thought on the issue of man’s fallen nature: pride versus low self esteem. It begins with an imaginary conversation between two friends about an irritating acquaintance. One says that he is “full of himself” and “egotistical.” The other argues that he only acts that way because he is not secure with himself and has a poor self-image. Cooper fairly represents both of these taxonomies of human nature and seeks to develop a synthesis of the two views in his conclusion.

The belief that pride is the center of the human ego has been a traditional Christian belief for thousands of years. Starting with Augustine original sin became the predominate view of the Church and helped shape Calvin’s and Dordt’s doctrine of Total Depravity during the Reformation. In the 20th century, Reinhold Niehuhr and C.S. Lewis carried on this belief which shows in their criticisms of modern society. However, in the last 100 years, the rise of psychoanalysis revealed the inward human struggle for self worth and significance. Starting with Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung and carried on by Carl Rogers, the argument is that pride is not humanity’s primary problem, but that it is self-contempt that drives people to such vices as self-centeredness and addiction. Another supporter of this belief is by feminist theologians that argue that women are filled with an innate self-loathing as opposed to a puffed up ego, and are not innately proud.

As Cooper writes, the implications of these beliefs are massive:

Quote:
Our assumptions about whether pride or low self-esteem is the primary human problem deeply influence our approach to people. If we assume that pride is primary, our approach may be more confrontational, more direct, more concerned to help others acknowledge and accept their inadequacies, limitations and sins… On the other hand, ministers convinced that deep-rooted feelings of inadequacy represent the primary problem will talk less about sin and much more about the importance of embracing ourselves as we are. Their ministry will be based on support, nurture and encouragement, rather than confrontation about our self-centeredness.



This is very elucidating for understanding the divergent ministry philosophies of [b]John MacArthur Jr. and Rick Warren. MacArthur would say that people’s deepest need is to have their sin confronted by the Word of God through forceful preaching, while Warren would aver that people are coming to church not for truth, but for relief. Hence, messages ought to be tailored for the purpose of building people up.[/b] This divergence is even seen in the two pastors who normally speak at my church. One is blunt and confrontational and the other is upbeat and encouraging.

While I have benefited from both viewpoints’ understanding of human nature, I tend to side for with the egoism perspective. While I appreciated the sensitivity of such writers like Brennan Manning, [b]I found my true self exposed by the writings of C.S. Lewis[/b]. However, the perfect hybrid of both that I’ve found is within the complicated but provocative philosophy of S?Kierkegaard and his Sickness Unto Death.

------

In Him, chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/3/9 12:42Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re: Two Sides of the Truth

The Samaritan woman's prosmicuity in John 4 is a reflection of both -- a legitimate desire for intimacy and fulfillment (which only God can satisfy) but at the same time blinded by sin, she sought to meet her needs through sinful acts of adultery.

Augustine, on one hand, is instrumental in the development of the idea of total depravity, nonetheless shows that he finds within himself a need for security that only God can provide -- [i]""Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee." (Confessions)[/i]

The doctrine of creation tells us that we are created by God as image-bearers of God, such that all our desires and needs are ultimately pointing towards God as our satisfaction. Our quests for fulfillment today are often misguided attempts to fill this void.

The consequence of the fall tells us that our sinful nature is deeply ingrained within us. We are enslaved by sin, and as a result, we deceive others as well as ourselves concerning our true conditions.

That's why, I think, Jesus is both [i]encouraging[/i] to sinners such as the prostitutes and tax collectors but also [i]confrontational[/i] to the Pharisees, whose self-righteousness blinded them to see their true selves. May we all have the same wisdom.

Just my two pennies...


_________________
Sam

 2005/3/9 13:21Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
While I have benefited from both viewpoints’ understanding of human nature, I tend to side for with the egoism perspective. While I appreciated the sensitivity of such writers like Brennan Manning, I found my true self exposed by the writings of C.S. Lewis. However, the perfect hybrid of both that I’ve found is within the complicated but provocative philosophy of S?Kierkegaard and his Sickness Unto Death.

You could always send Mr Cooper a copy of Paris Reidhead? Personally I think this is just another expression of the the spiritual hedonism Paris Reidhead identifies so clearly. (Soren Kierkegaard? yuck!) In one ex-communist countries that I visited, in one church probably almost 50% of the congregation had studied psychology. They were extremely intelligent people; there were two chess grand-masters in the congregation! It became clear that their preoccupation with psychology was really a self-help programme, as they struggled to understand themselves and their reactions.

Paul tells us For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (Rom 12:3 KJV)I can't count the times I have heard preachers improve on Paul by saying 'nor too lowly either'. I prefer Paul, neat.

I distrust psychological terms, especially when used to explain biblical phenomena. I distrust, 'self-esteem' profoundly. I have seen proud people being patiently taken apart by the Lord only to be put back together again by the local Christian doctor and his theories of 'self esteem'. I try to force myself to use biblical terms. If there is not an adequate biblical term for this I suspect the 'alternative medicine' of the psychologist.

People do need to know that they are loved by God; in whatever condition they are. Not because they are not so bad as they think they are, but because they are much worse than they think they are. The 'psychological experience' of Elijah's poor 'self-image' is instructive;But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers. (1Ki 19:4 KJV) Well, Elijah, if you'll excuse me asking, who said that you were? His poor 'self-image' was the result of his having a good 'self-image' and the distress that his disillusionment brought. But if he had not had the 'illusion' (to link to a previous thread) he would not have had to be 'dissed' of it.

What we need is the discernment that brings God's diagnosis to the sufferer. The Lord shows a wonderful capacity in drawing near to the down-trodden; which (Sam) is how I regard the woman at the well, rather than a promiscuous woman. Samaritan women, as Jewish women, could not divorce their husbands; this woman had been dumped 5 times. Can you wonder that she didn't bother to go through the motions the 6th time?

I suspect that 'low self esteem' is just another disguise that 'pride' is using. It is the result of someone comparing themselves with someone else, rather than listening to God's diagnosis. God never says 'there, there, it's not as bad as you think'; but 'fear not thou worm Jacob'. Instead of trying to improve self image perhaps we should be encouraging people to hear God's 'fear not'. 'You are a worm' but 'fear not'. I don't mind being a worm if I can hear God saying 'fear not'.

Just a half-forgotten memory... As a middle teenager I was an avid reader of the Herald of His Coming, which is some ways was a printed precursor of Sermonindex! It often suggested ways of self-humbling. For some months I hung a sign in my bedroom so that the first thing my eyes opened on, to my poor mother's bemused consternation, was "I am a worm". It didn't work; none of it 'works'... but God's word will 'do it' every time...For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12 KJV)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/3/9 14:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
However if you believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and you believe that the Lord adds to the Church daily, such as should be saved, then this program is not for you or your church.



Wow... you hit the nail on the head with that one. I've been trying to express the problems I see with the PD stuff... and you just did it for me. I have nothing more to add.

Krispy

 2005/3/9 14:28
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: self-esteem...

Thanks Ron, for your input. I can see that I am in agreement. And this article/ post from this blog yesterday helped me draw a more clear line.

One example that i can use is my 15 yr. old daughter. At school they teach and brainwash them that they all have low self esteem IF they feel this way or that. Or you can tell someone who has low self-esteem by such and such...

She complained the other day that she had low self esteem because she was too tired and lazy to stand up straight as she walked (and a few other things). I told her that she KNEW what God thinks of her already (she is made in His image) and that she lacks self-discipline (which now she agrees with wholeheartedly) and should think about her SELF less. If we are busy thinking of the Lord and others, we won't have too much time thinking of our SELVES and our sorry story. I told her she didn't need "self" esteem- she needs God esteem. The only thing that matters is what the Lord thinks about you anyway.

When i shared that quote which I shared with you:

[b]Humility isn’t thinking less of yourself, but thinking about yourself less. Self-centered people and people of low self-esteem both suffer from thinking about themselves too much — both suffer from pride.[/b]

She said: "O, that is so true!"


Anyway, i think this makes a huge impact on the way pastors/people approach sin, pride and self-esteem. This really helps seperate the issues.

Thanks again!

In His love, Chanin




_________________
Chanin

 2005/3/9 14:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:
One example that i can use is my 15 yr. old daughter. At school they teach and brainwash them that they all have low self esteem IF they feel this way or that. Or you can tell someone who has low self-esteem by such and such...



.... this is why we homeschool.

Krispy

 2005/3/9 15:45
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: Purpose Driven vs Spirit Led

This purpose driven program is nothing but another worldly program that infeltrates the Body of Christ from time to time to steer well meaning people astray, and away from the REAL WORD OF GOD.
My church, (Pentecostal) introduced the Purpose Driven Life program last fall. I had heard from some very good people that there was a problem with it, so I approached my pastor about our use of the program, and he said that I was the only one in a congregation of 1400 who had a problem with it.
I will hi-lite one glaring error in the book, even before you get to chapter one. On page 10 of the paperback copy that I have, there are 8 so called examples of a changed life in 40 days. ALL are suspect but #3 states.
The spies were transformed by 40 days in the Promised Land.
In my Bible (Numbers 13:25-33) it says that 10 of the spies came back with negative reports, and only 2 wanted to take the land. My suggestion is that you stay well clear of this drivel..Hold fast to the Word of God.
In Christ Greg :-o


_________________
Greg

 2005/3/9 20:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I approached my pastor about our use of the program, and he said that I was the only one in a congregation of 1400 who had a problem with it.



Boy, if that doesnt ever illustrate the condition of the church today! 1 out of 1,400 has noticed a problem and had the nerve to speak up.

I commend you, brother.

And what about your pastor's attitude? "Hey, the mojority love it... it must be ok!"

Hogwash!

Krispy

 2005/3/10 8:38
mtembezi
Member



Joined: 2004/10/28
Posts: 66
Nairobi, Kenya

 Re: The Purpose Driven Thread

Thanks for the continued input.
Incidetally Rick Warren is in town, though I will not be able to hear him speak.
I realise I ought to prayerfull read the book, and by God's grace get a balanced view.
I don't know if this is a good illustration, but I got saved reading the Good News Bible, I was desperate for God and hungrily read most of the Bible before coming to the Lord.
So God used what is considered an imperfect translaiton to turn me to Himself, so here's my question:
Is the PD book an imperfect tool that God can use to turn men away from sin and to Him?
Or is it a wicked tool that will further harden men against the gospel.
I haven't thought this through, but for now I'm all for sinners coming to the Lord, loving Him and hating sin, whatever their entry point. I am praying for revival and if this is one way God will use to bring souls to the Kingdom, I can't disagree with any such tool, however imperfect.


_________________
Richard Walker

 2005/3/11 11:35Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy