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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


hi, i feel like r.c.expressed my exact views well. i wish i wernt so dumb.

 2012/5/3 0:08Profile


What troubles me is his reference to Martin Luther as a great man. True, he seemed to spearhead the Reformation but he was one who was instrumental in the persecuting/killing of the Anabaptists. Is God so partial he will allow unrepentant folks into heaven because they were great theologians? Perhaps God will also allow present day unrepentant abortionists into heaven because they are great men in their community - people who are active in civic affairs, give handsomely to their church...Hey, these guys exist and not live all that far from me (or at least he used to). Do you understand what I am saying?

Yup loud and clear, you are planning on kicking Luther out of heaven.

Another angle of the story


 2012/5/3 0:43

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


Hi sister Ginnyrose,

I would like to add that I appreciated the article regardless of any anecdote about Martin Luther. I appreciated the article because of the essence of what the writer was saying about being given over to controversy via the internet.

I hope this clarifies why I appreciated about this article.

In fact, I don't see a reference to Martin Luther as a "great man" either. The writer simply says that Martin Luther "faced bullies" and "changed the world." I expect that the bullies that he is alluding to were from Rome. And, regardless of Luther's views or actions, I don't know if anyone would argue that the world wasn't changed as a result of what he did.

The Lord bless you, sister!


 2012/5/3 1:09Profile


This was the rest of the paragraph that I partially quoted that made me uneasy -

"We read an attack site (discernment blog, as they like to call themselves), and find that the kingdom is crumbling because Joel Osteen’s book is being carried in some LifeWay store somewhere, or because a guy in our camp invited a guy in their camp to speak at a conference."

I am very leary of those that decry discernment ministries and those that would rather we not talk about those that are teaching the young in Christ hog-wash.
This is coming from a Bible-Answer-man type and anyone who takes upon themselves to be called "teacher" - from Paul's definition - had better be able to protect the sheep from False Gospels and false teachers or they need to get out of their position.
How would the Apostles handle the examples given in this quote?

I also said in my first post that there are truths mingled in or sandwiched between some very strange comments.

If Art Katz or anyone else said these things, I'd back away just as leary as well.

A man that decrys discernment ministries has something to hide - though granted, there are a few of those sites that are a bit over the top - there are many that are keeping His lambs safe and opening their eyes to things they'd never find out about the men or even now women they've followed that are deceiving thousands. GOD Bless them!

This article starts out good and then the quotes from these two paragraphs that I've posted in two posts now, sound totally strange, coming from a big name teacher or 'guru', to coin his phrase.

No man is beyond testing and the example of Paul was to name names of those that were going off - unlike this paragraph quoted above.

There are Reformed Ministers that are going or are emergent and dominionist and I believe that is why this paragraph was added in 'when' it was - after the opening paragraphs that stated truths. That's a manipulative style of persuasion. The beginning truths get you off guard in agreement and then the controversial is thrown into the mix somewhere mingled in the middle or end, after you're already nodding your head in agreement 'against something' that is legitimently wrong. It's a tactic, sorry to say. How to take folks off guard, but through subltey and to persuade you to lower your standards on protecting His "truth".
The other full paragraph that I quoted was saying in a convoluted way - the more followers these false teachers have, the less you should fight against them and why I put that question mark after it.

No, Paul would have never swallowed this piece. He'd see it for what it's truly saying and leading to.

 2012/5/3 2:11


We truly have a unique gifting here at SI... we can pick apart and debate anything!

Ginny, of course I know that your disagreement isnt with me. That goes without saying. And like it was pointed out, RC Jr did not say Luther was "great"... you added that. He simply used his experience with others as an example.

There are conflicting views on Martin Luther's relationship with anabaptists. Coming from that tradition naturally you have been taught the anabaptists slant on that history. I have read a number of books on Luther and there is compelling evidence that suggests that much of what has been taught about this topic was greatly exaggerated... by the anabaptists, and simply not true.

I dont want this to turn into a debate about Luther... that would totally miss the point of the article and distract from my original intent.

Jesus-Is-God... I simply disagree with your take on this article and your feelings about the Sprouls. By the way, RC Sproul did not write this article. His son, RC Sproul Jr did... it's noted at the bottom.

I suspect your disagreement with reformed theology colors your opinion. And there is nothing wrong with someone being in a teaching ministry. You seem to be looking down your nose on those gifted as teachers by the Holy Spirit. Why is that?

And thats ok... I love you anyway. :-)

The fact is the MESSAGE... THE MESSAGE of the article is true, good and timely! It doesnt matter who wrote it. If Benny Hinn wrote it would be no less true.


 2012/5/3 8:42

 Re: Someone is Wrong on the Internet

Let me say first that the intentions of the poster and it's contents are all good and should from time to time be brought up since someone is bound to be wrong on the Internet or lets bring it closer to home, here on SI.

R.C. Sproul Jr said:

The real battles are these: Will I speak graciously to my children today? Will I have a grateful and cheerful heart about my neighbors, my fellow employees, those with whom I worship? Will I go to war against gossip, not by pointing out the gossip of others but by tending my own garden?

This is a lot of work, wearyingly to say the least. We all want to be that gracious Mom or Dad, we all want to be grateful and cheery toward our neighbours and toward those that we work beside etc.. This is a lot of work, work that I am not willing to submit to. Sounds lazy of me doesn't it?

If it's in our heart, it will automatically be in our daily conduct. That is why the Lord said that He would write His law in our heart and CAUSE us to perform His nature. If it's not in our heart, it will be nothing but a cross-less performance on our part trying to be good. Only God is good, therefore if we desire to be good, then it's only befitting that the one who is good place good things in our heart so that goodness proceeds automatically, sometimes even without our knowledge that good is being done.

So what do we do if we realize that we are gossiping? We repent of the thing and renounce it for one thing. And then we pray that God either remove the problem or add something greater of His nature that causes that to wane in comparison and fall away. Resisting becomes easier in the hands of one who has renounced such behaviour, they become hard to resist when there still is an itch to want to do it. That itch needs to be removed. And that work is only brought about through our willingness to cooperate with the Holy Ghost.

The way I see it then, the purpose of Krispies original post in this thread is to recognize our failings, repent and if we are serious about each conviction (if any) the Holy Ghost will go to work in changing the status quo.

 2012/5/3 8:42


I suspect your disagreement with reformed theology colors your opinion. And there is nothing wrong with someone being in a teaching ministry. You seem to be looking down your nose on those gifted as teachers by the Holy Spirit. Why is that?

And thats ok... I love you anyway. :-)

The fact is the MESSAGE... THE MESSAGE of the article is true, good and timely! It doesnt matter who wrote it. If Benny Hinn wrote it would be no less true.

You'd have to ask my Pastor that, Krispy. :)

I don't look "down my nose at gifted teachers" and sat under enough of them and look to them to PROTECT the Church.

Can you tell me what is wrong with a "Teacher" saying the following .... "This is what the Bible says is the Gospel and here are the verses to prove it out. --- And this is what Joel Olsteen or Rich Warren teaches. ---- And this is the discrepency between what Olsteen teaches and The Word teaches. --- And this is the discrepency between what Warren is teaching and what The Word says."

According to Sproul's article - this part of being a "teacher" is Wrong.

Where a "teacher" is not like the Apostles - most especially like Paul in defending the sheep against heresies, to that degree they are not "teaching" Biblically.
The Apostles were Apologists first and foremost - Protecting the Church from every form of error and heresy that tried to creep into the churches. And if we've ever needed teachers like That - it's Now and in the deceptive future. We need these type of protective-shepherds desperately with what Jesus said is still yet to come. Deception like has never been seen in the history of the world.
Those are the teachers that I am praying will increase in these last days. Even if women have to protect sheep from the deceivers that are coming - so be it - GOD is allowing it on one or two "discernment ministries" - such as one such ministry by that name.
I cringe when "teachers" are not jealous For Truth.

This is not a Cal/Arm debate with me, Krispy - but if you call accepting the Olsteen and Warren gospels a "good and timely message" - well - I love you too Krispy, but I'm disappointed.


 2012/5/3 10:37

 Re: Someone is Wrong on the Internet

For those of you who appear to like this article, I would like to know what you are going to do about it other than just agreeing with it?

 2012/5/3 10:46

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


This reminds me of a pastor friend of mine who told me of a lady who was so hung up on things like Easter being a pagan holiday and that she went so far as to put a disclaimer at the bottom of the bulletin saying that she may not necessarily agree with all that was published in the bulletin. I mean it can be ridiculous because every day that you do something in particular for the Lord may be somebody else’s pagan holiday and I don’t really care because I am going to take every day and honor the Lord in it.

Take this article for instance I’m not going to try and dissect it and think of all the background shenanigans because the essence of the message was good and had a good point.

Ann and ginny, bless you dear sisters, the parts where you seem to have so much trouble with, maybe you missed the real point of what he was trying to convey. Sometimes people use things as examples, but that does not mean they approve of everything about them.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

 2012/5/3 11:13Profile


Martin Luther was not a true Protestant, at least not the ones that came after him.

He was a Roman Catholic adherent who disagreed with a lot of issues within the Church. He wanted to bring it back to it's senses as it were.

The Reformists that rose up during that time spoke against the Roman Catholic church to which he never gave favour to doing, he was against it's corruption.

From reading his history he reminds me of David while being chased by Saul. He saw that Saul was God's anointed and refused to believe otherwise.

But Brother Luther was caught between to worlds, he discovered justification by faith once again and introduced that into the world which seemed to have lost such information, to which is why they called it the Dark Ages I suppose. He didn't want to destroy Saul rather to see Him come to his senses.

Let me say this with all certainty, Brother Martin Luther is now in heaven and as soon as our last breath is taken, we shall see him there.

 2012/5/3 11:15

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