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 Re: The Coming Great Persecution by Greg Gordon

Hi Greg,
I have to disagree with what you said below.You obviously believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture and thats fine.Their are very good scriptural arguements for all positions pre post and mid(which is really pre).
This is an old wives tale as far as I am concerned regarding pretribbers unpreparedness.My Pastor is a pre tribber and preaches all the time on trials and persecutions.
I wish you would just go ahead and say that you dont believe in pretribulation Rapture.And that fine if you do.I just dont think Post Trib could be correct mainly due to the "days of Lot and Noah" scriptures.
No matter what position a person takes God has a plan for the time of the end that will be on his terms not the enemy.God will protect his own whether before the trib or through the trib.If we are counted worthy to be martyred or persecuted then more glory to God.I wont be going looking for martyrdom but if thats what God wants for me or others let us hope we complete the race the way God wants.

...(Yet I believe firmly that we will all feel like we are in the great tribulation when this end time persecution wave hits the church. The birth pains will become worse and worse and many of those that have believed in a pre-tribulational rapture that would have them escape from all suffering will be 100% unprepared for what is going to come upon them.)...

Yours Staff

 2012/4/29 16:58Profile
rbanks
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 Re:

quote
May God see fit to make us a people willing to suffer and as my suggestions and advice that we should daily take opportunities to suffer in preparation for much great suffering.
quote


I'm sorry brother Greg that you feel this way for this is not the gospel. This sounds worse than humanism. Jesus didn't tell us to take daily opportunities to suffer as though we are to add something to His finished work. Jesus said we would suffer because of our relationship to Him but he would give us times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord. There a big difference in our suffering because we follow Christ than in daily taking opportunities to suffer.

Brother it is not in our ability to endure suffering because we are practicing suffering but in Christ who gives us aid to endure or overcome. We are not giving Christ any glory by practicing suffering but only Glory to Him when I endure suffering because of Him. Suffering in itself doesn't please God if we are the one's responsible for the suffering, it is only when we are suffering by something we didn't cause but only because of our love for Him.

Wow...this sounds like making a religion out of suffering. No thank you please but I want no part of anything that is of self and not by the Spirit.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

 2012/4/29 17:30Profile
AbideinHim
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 Re: The Coming Great Persecution by Greg Gordon

Good post Greg!

In most of our churches we seldom hear any endtime preaching of "The Day of the Lord" which consists of both the judgements of God and revival on a world wide scale. Instead, we hear that Jesus is coming back to deliver us from the tribulation. The teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture has left much of the Body of Christ unprepared for what is coming soon to our nation as well as the rest of the world. Because of this erroneous teaching many Christians believe that they will be raptured out of here and be spared of any trouble so that most are at ease in Zion. There is very little repentance in the Church in America, and most of the pastors in this nation do not see the judgement that is coming.

I attend a small church called "Prepare The Way". The pastor commented this morning that "A Tsunami is about to hit this nation and that very few are prepared." I believe that he was speaking prophetically. God has been speaking through many of the disasters that have come suddenly killing many people because they were totally unprepared and never saw it coming, but who is listening?

It is a major deception to believe that the economy is improving in this nation. It doesn't matter who is elected to be our next president, a Muslim or a Mormon. Only God can save us. God is going to shake all things that can be shaken and our only safety is to stay hidden in the cleft of the rock.

God is looking for intercessors that are watchmen that see what is coming and will sound the alarm.

Mike


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 2012/4/29 17:56Profile
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 Re:

Hi Abideinhim,
I think this post is disrespectful to most Pre tribulation brothers and sisters who have also studied the subject.Whether the rapture is pre or post has little to do with Americas lack of repentance.All christians whether pre or post know that 1 Peter 4:17 says "Judgement begins with the house of God"
Judgement is not tribulation.You can have Judgement at any time in history but the great tribulation comes at the end.
Perhaps it is time for judgement to fall on the church in America but it will have little to do with their view of the Rapture.
1 Peter 14: goes on to say "and if it first begin with us,what shall the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
Let us pray that the lords hand in Judgement is held back by our prayers.But perhaps this is too late.
Also God is on our side.When the Jerusalem fell in Ad 70 the Christians remembering Jesus's warning left the city to safety.No doubt the Holy Spirit brought this to their remembrance as well.They could have stayed and be killed;they could have been persecuted but they left.
Yours Staff

 2012/4/29 19:10Profile









 Re:


1Co 9:24-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: but I keep under [buffet] my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


A.T. Robertson's Greek Word Pictures -

1Co 9:27 -

" But I buffet my body (alla hupo¯piazo¯ mou to so¯ma). In Aristophanes, Aristotle, Plutarch, from hupo¯pion, and that from hupo and ops (in papyri), the part of the face under the eyes, a blow in the face, to beat black and blue. In N.T. only here and Luk_18:5 which see. Paul does not, like the Gnostics, consider his sarx or his so¯ma sinful and evil. But “it is like the horses in a chariot race, which must be kept well in hand by whip and rein if the prize is to be secured” (Robertson and Plummer). The boxers often used boxing gloves (cestus, of ox-hide bands) which gave telling blows. Paul was not willing for his body to be his master. He found good as the outcome of this self-discipline (2Co_12:7; Rom_8:13; Col_2:23; Col_3:5).

And bring it into bondage (kai doulago¯go¯). Late compound verb from doulago¯gos, in Diodorus Siculus, Epictetus and substantive in papyri. It is the metaphor of the victor leading the vanquished as captive and slave.

Lest by any means (me¯ po¯s). Common conjunction for negative purpose with subjunctive as here (geno¯mai, second aorist middle).

After that I have preached to others (allois ke¯ru¯xas). First aorist active participle of ke¯russo¯ (see note on 1Co_1:23), common verb to preach, from word ke¯rux (herald) and that is probably the idea here. A ke¯rux at the games announced the rules of the game and called out the competitors. So Paul is not merely a herald, but a competitor also.

I myself should be rejected (autos adokimos geno¯mai). Literally, “I myself should become rejected.” Adokimos is an old adjective used of metals, coin, soil (Heb_6:8) and in a moral sense only by Paul in N.T. (1Co_9:27; 2Co_13:5-7; Rom_1:28; Tit_1:16; 2Ti_3:8). "



2Co 6:5 in stripes, in imprisonments, in riots,
in labors, in watchings, in fastings

 2012/4/29 19:16
pilgrim777
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 Re:

rbanks,

The way that you take daily opportunities to suffer is to pick up your cross (embrace it don't run from it), deny the flesh and follow Jesus, DAILY.

Maybe this is what Greg meant. True, people have made a religion of suffering, but do you think this is really what he was saying?

Pilgrim

 2012/4/29 19:16Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I wish you would just go ahead and say that you dont believe in pretribulation Rapture.And that fine if you do.I just dont think Post Trib could be correct mainly due to the "days of Lot and Noah" scriptures.



Dear Brother,

Thank you for your concerns and comments. I do not 100% hold to a specific doctrinal view of the end times. I actually do not find myself fitting into any of the 3 popular view: Pre-Trib, Post-Trib and Mid-Trib. I find that all of these doctrinal views have too much baggage and requirements to believe what the scholars ask us to believe.

All that I am trying to bring forward I believe in the article is to state that to teach a Pre-Trib viewpoint that presents the idea of being free and never having any period of end time suffering is foreign to much of church history, and to clear bible belief. So I believe that is dangerous to believe that type of view and doctrine. I am not contending I believe for a Post-Trib view rather I am contending for whatever viewpoint you believe that there is a time of suffering coming that Jesus Christ clearly spoke of in scriptures and we must get ready for this.

I hope that is more clear. I am sorry if I seemed to speak against the entire doctrine or idea, it could happen and I am open to be caught up in the Rapture at any point! I am not sure who of us who really love the Lord would argue when we go ;) I feel even the rapture could be much earlier for some of us because each day is not guaranteed for us and when we die (each of us personally) that is our own "personal" rapture to be with the Lord.


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 2012/4/29 19:32Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I'm sorry brother Greg that you feel this way for this is not the gospel. This sounds worse than humanism. Jesus didn't tell us to take daily opportunities to suffer as though we are to add something to His finished work. Jesus said we would suffer because of our relationship to Him but he would give us times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord. There a big difference in our suffering because we follow Christ than in daily taking opportunities to suffer.



I am not trying to say that the Gospel is to suffer. Or suffering saves you. I am not saying either that if you do not try to suffer you are not saved. That is "not" what I was trying to allude to. I was simply trying to show that we have a doctrinal bias in our day to justify our comfort even fleshly comfort and the doctrine or idea of suffering is foreign to much of modern evangelicalism.

Yet there are 100's of clear biblical verses that speak the opposite. So my only point was not to go out looking to suffer but rather when suffering comes (and it will) then embrace it and allow the grace of God to work in you to overcome it. Also I agree there is not real way to 100% prepare for suffering in the end times such as martyrdom but we must be willing to suffer for Christ at least in a way of verbal abuse. Such as if we speak a word for Christ or righteousness and we are evil spoken of. Christ said that this would happen and we must not resist it or deny His Name even in just normal conversations in our day.

Here is a video by John Piper on suffering where he reads verses about suffering, I felt it very good and he gives it with much grace:

"You Will Suffer" by John Piper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--JiiuJNvt4&feature=relmfu


I trust this helps clarify abit of what I was aiming at dear brother.


Quote:
I attend a small church called "Prepare The Way". The pastor commented this morning that "A Tsunami is about to hit this nation and that very few are prepared." I believe that he was speaking prophetically. God has been speaking through many of the disasters that have come suddenly killing many people because they were totally unprepared and never saw it coming, but who is listening?

It is a major deception to believe that the economy is improving in this nation. It doesn't matter who is elected to be our next president, a Muslim or a Mormon. Only God can save us. God is going to shake all things that can be shaken and our only safety is to stay hidden in the cleft of the rock.

God is looking for intercessors that are watchmen that see what is coming and will sound the alarm.



Amen dear brother I believe there really needs to be a sobriety in our walks these days, May we be hearing the still small voice of God. A very godly brother shared this link on his email list, I am very weary of videos like this but I do feel it covers some events that "are" actually happening and we must be doing the will of God in our days. This is his disclaimer for the video: "t seemed good to me to send you this link and let you check for yourself andevaluate just a few of the amazing things that have been going on all over the worldin the first three months of 2012! After watching this video I sensed afresh thelateness of the hour! It does seem that the whole world is in travail and that allcreation is groaning, just waiting for the coming of our Lord! It seems that the signs of His coming grow more clear with each passing day! May His church rise up andbe ready to meet Him. See the link below for some interesting developments" - http://www.youtube.com/user/fidockave213?ob=0&feature=results_video&v=G0JchP9G_qI&lr=1





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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/4/29 19:39Profile
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 Re:

Hi Greg,
Thanks for your reply.
If I knew Jesus was coming next month just before the tribulation I would be trying my hardest with minimum sleep to get things done and perhaps we should have that urgency.If I knew next month that the Tribulation was coming before the tribulation I would be trying my hardest with minimum sleep to get things done and perhaps we should have that urgency!
I pray that I will be more urgent!
Yours Staff

 2012/4/29 19:56Profile





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