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 Re:

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, [then they serve] that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Anyone who has ever drunk an alcoholic beverage and has had a few will immediately refuse a drink that doesn't have alcohol in it unless he needs to sober up. But when your at a party like these guys were, it's every man's intention to have fun and more the merrier. If Jesus were to serve "Grape Juice", He would have insulted His guests.

This is a wonderful story, it's too bad we only highlight this one area about wine, and I know why. It's because there is a lot of people that have been delivered from alcohol and drugs and to see Jesus make wine through a miracle is hard to comprehend. I sympathize with you all. Therefore it's better to leave this section alone until your strong enough to understand it, and in time you will be strong to understand it.

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. [one firkin is 210 gallons according to wiki]

I like this. Here Jesus being our High Priest is performing the law right at His own party, 'after the manner of the purifying of the Jews.'

The symbolism of the new wine that Jesus is offering here is to purify and cleanse, this new stuff is Himself, saving the best for the last which is poured out for you and I.

 2012/4/29 9:24
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3400
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: in regards to drinking alcohol as a christian



There is freedom but as Paul said, “Yes, I have freedom to what I will but God forbid that I should make another stumble taking part in my freedom” (paraphrased by me).

We need to know that my freedom might be someone else’s trigger especially if they see me (a Christian) taking part in this said freedom. There’s a higher calling my friends, so what’s it going to be: your precious freedom or being a servant?

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2012/4/29 10:15Profile









 Re:

Lysa said:

" There’s a higher calling my friends, so what’s it going to be: your precious freedom or being a servant?"

This is truly the word of the Lord that you shared Lysa. Are we our brothers keeper?

In Christ -Jim

 2012/4/29 10:18









 Re: Meanings of words

Quote:
AMRKELLY, i know what you meant in your quote but just to clarify just in case anyone else might not know.



Thanks for that Trekker. I used 'stumbled' rhetorically not figuratively.

I have given up this 'freedom' many years ago. Just to agree what Lisa said. I once preached in a city for five years and found that I came across many men drunk. They were all in a truly sad condition, almost destroyed by drink. One particular man became my focus for a while. I would passionately tell him that drink was destroying his life. He listened. I was blessed. A few weeks later I was having lunch in a Public House and decided to have a small glass of beer with my lunch. This poor man came into the Public House as well and seeing my beer was cut to his core with shock. I too was cut to the core. I never saw him again. For me there is no more liberty on this issue. Others have to judge according to there own effects.

 2012/4/29 11:41









 Freedom, but not to sin or stumble.

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another."

"For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

"It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."

"Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."...........................

Wine and alcohol can be very addicting, and some people are terribly susceptible to becoming addicts; the American Indian culture for instance, never built up any resistance to alcohol in the cultural gene pool. Many die of alcohol related disease and incidents. I come from a long line of addicts from my Scotch/Irish/Welsh/German bloodline. We like our beer.

" The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves."

It is Biblically acceptable, but not unto drunkenness on a personal level, nor is it acceptable if it stumbles your brother or sister in any way; So, I think it is fine, but should generally be done in private, and guarded, lest a weaker one, or even a recovering alcoholic should fall by your example. Currently, I am abstaining for spiritual reasons.

Also, Paul's admonition to Timothy, to use wine as a medication "for his often sicknesses" is very clear. It is not forbidden; Stumbling and sin are.

 2012/4/29 12:56
lylewise
Member



Joined: 2009/2/20
Posts: 494
Celina, Texas

 Re: Freedom, but not to sin or stumble.

This topic always seems to get a fair amount of consideration. The concern stems from the supposed stumbling block cast before the young (new) believer. Though it is an impossible possition to defend dissipation and who fearing the Lord would ever trym should we not be more concerned with the greater issue that is allowing for the building of a foundation upon righteousness that cmes by way of restriction of food or drink? By not dispelling this error are we not party to affirming a righteousness that does not originate in Christ? If my righteousness comes by my restraint of drinking alcohol, then may I abstain all the more from soft drinks and tea so that I can gain an even greater standing before the Lord that comes by abstention. No Christian would ever defend the placing of a stumbling block before a young one whose love for the Lord would result in their conscience being grieved by a brother or sister who seemingly places another god before Christ.

Maybe their is still a deeper issue that stems from dissipation? Maybe gluttony might serve as an example as to how this action would cause a weaker brother or sister to stumble? In the knowledge given the believer by virtue of scripture, we know that if God feeds the smallest and most insignificant of animals, will He will supply for one made in His image? What gluttony brings to light in the life of a believer is the questioning of God's provision. Though God has made provision now, can He be trusted to supply in the future? The testing might not be more than one meal away. So the testimony of one who stuffs himself beyond what is a healthy intake is exposing a lack of Faith for the Lord to do as He has promised. Mathew 6:26

One has no choice but to make the wine Christ partook of or converted from water into a fresh unfermented juice or they will be guilty of making Him a breaker of the very law which they wish to uphold. This would make Christ not only a wine bibber, but a fermentor, and supplier as well. If we take this catagory and apply a similar reasoning to dissipation, we should find ourselves at the same root which stems from a lack of faith of God's provision. Not that the wine will run out so one must drink all that they can while it last (that once again is an issue of gluttony) but rather, once one loses control of themselves, can they then testify that the Lord is in control of their life? How do they testify that their life is His and no longer their own if they recklously give it to the god of this world? That says," I don't trust that God is in control, and since I cannot trust that God is in control, I must make my temporary escape.

How vast the number of liberties that can be layed before the new believers as stumbling blocks. I don't believe we have yet begun to consider the possibilities.





 2012/4/29 18:23Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3400
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:


Quote:
Jim wrote:
Are we our brothers keeper?


To a certain extent, I believe we are brother. We cannot dictate and lord over people so they always make the right decisions but when it comes down to laying aside our "flesh" that our freedoms do not trigger their bondage's, then yes. Does that make sense, I'm writing this on the fly.

Most of us (Christians), living in America has given us (me included) an air of entitlement (i.e. my rights, my freedoms) and I'm learning that God wants us to lay down our rights and trust Him. Am I perfect at this? LOL Far from it but I see which direction I'm headed!

God bless you,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2012/4/30 8:08Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3247
Texas

 Re: in regards to drinking alcohol as a christian

Quote:
GodsChild73 If its ok to drink alcohol as a christian that does that mean i can take and open a bottle of Budweiser at church



Sometimes I have to open a can of Bud to get through some of the stuff I see on TBN. Last night after 5 minutes of Kim Clement, I needed a shot of Tequila. :)


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Mr. Bill

 2012/4/30 9:21Profile
mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

Quote:
Sometimes I have to open a can of Bud to get through some of the stuff I see on TBN. Last night after 5 minutes of Kim Clement, I needed a shot of Tequila. :)



There is a power button you know? I don't watch TBN anymore can't trust them after that healing rag thing I bought didn't work... lol jk ;)


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Matthew Guldner

 2012/4/30 9:26Profile
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3247
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
There is a power button you know? I don't watch TBN anymore can't trust them after that healing rag thing I bought didn't work... lol jk ;)



I know, I guess some of us just can't get enough punishment. :)


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Mr. Bill

 2012/4/30 9:35Profile





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