SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Mike Bickle wants book about Catholic mystics to be "manual" at Ihop

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 )
PosterThread
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Yes, Approved, he is considered a "mystic" by many. Mystic has come to mean a "bad" thing, but you just have to "hold fast to that which is good".

Was Paul a mystic because he wanted to know Christ in the fellowship of His sufferings? Was he a mystic because he had visions and even some think taken out of his body to the 3rd heaven.

You have to deal with books like people. One on one and don't accept anything that does not agree with the Spirit and the Word.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/26 19:55Profile









 Re:

I have never considered the word "Mystic" to be a bad word, I consider the word to mean the same as "Sages" or "Oracles", or even a Seer. I know those words are associated with witchy stuff, societies change words around and perhaps one day the word 'gay' in society will again mean colourful and happy.

 2012/4/26 20:23
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re: Repost, somehow my original disappeared?

Seems a little dated to be bringing up this conversation. I remember reading Bickle's quote on this book years ago, but, it is still posted in this book's description in their web store, so I suppose it's fair game.

As for the book itself, I have read it (I think initially due to Bickle's advice no less!). I went through a brief season of studying the mystics after having been pointed to them by various Christian saints (among them the good Tozer and even Mr. Ravenhill).

Dubay essentially synthesizes the prayer teachings of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. He writes fairly academically; some of the sentence structure requires moderate thought to follow, and his vocabulary is on a graduate level. As a Catholic, Dubay follows the Catholic tendency to really, really admire Teresa and John. For me, I found this slightly annoying and actually skipped over some of their biographical information Dubay included at the front of his book.

All in all, I remember enjoying the book. Looking at it now, the pages have a fair amount of underlines. When I read, I star passages that blow my socks off and write the page number on an index card I keep in the book. Fire Within earned 14 stars. Here are some of the starred passages:

-Without humility, detachment, and sound doctrine there is no deep communion with the Lord....quality of prayer correlates with quality of life...lifestyle and prayer grow or diminish together...the apostles themselves considered their duty to be prayer first of all...(page 9)

-The holier the confessor, the gentler he is, and the less he is scandalized at other people's faults, because he understands man's weak condition better. (page 37)

-It is important to note that authentic meetings with God produce personal goodness, even heroic goodness that is far beyond human capacity. (page 41).

-Here we have the core of the economy of salvation: salvation effected by union, transformative participation in the divine nature, a beginning in faith of what shall be completed in vision; an eternal enthrallment in Father, Son, and Spirit; purest beauty, joy, and love. (page 64).

-...many people unwittingly water down Scripture as they read it. They fail to notice or attend to the uncompromising totality that we read on every page. (page 108).

-...carrying the cross is a gift...(page 126)

-Love is the measure of our ability to bear crosses. (page 127)

-If anyone is serious about loving God totally, he must willingly entertain no self-centered pursuit of finite things sought for themselves, that is, devoid of honest direction to God, our sole end and purpose. (page 134)

-solid love is to be found not hidden away in corners but in dealing with others...in the midst of occasion of sin. (page 227)

Reading the quotes now, quite some time after reading them the first time, I'm not especially impressed by them, but they reflect the flavor of medieval Christianity: majoring on self-denial, imitation of Christ, and experiential communion with God. I lean more toward the grace side of things now, but I do appreciate the zeal and practical steps this stream of Christianity presents.


_________________
Paul

 2012/4/26 21:20Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Mysticism, in recent years has become a synonymous with personal spiritual "experience". Certainly in the scriptures there are several accounts, such as Paul's (Saul) roadside encounter with Christ, that would loosely meet that definition.

Additionally there are many heartfelt writings of devotion left behind by saints who were clearly speaking from a personal knowledge of the Lord, and whose deep insight and passion stands in welcome relief to the typical shallow religous writings of the 20th century. I believe many of these writers such as Thomas à Kempis had a deeply personal experience of the Lord.

However, the reason mysticism remains controversial is precisely because it is personal, private and singular.

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20

When the strength of our faith in the Gospel is measured by the dept of our "experience", rather then the authority of the Scripture, we can be both vunerable to deception, and invulnerable to correction all at the same time.

I can admire the intensely personal devotion found within the mystic tradition, but I do not see how I can completely surrender my intellect and heart to anything but what is given to me in the pages of Scripture. And I believe the Holy Spirit wants to illuminate to all of us, a deeper understanding of His words, as we obey. Yet I do not think we should regard this personal experience anything as rarified as "mysticism", but rather regard it as the normal Christian life described in the bible.

"But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."
2 Corinthians 3:16

“Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law." Ps. 119:18

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2012/4/26 22:46Profile









  I am redeemed and cleansed each day..and moment by moment. I do not earn by holin

Giggles. I appreciate your humility, and read your disclaimer these years later at the end; "I am not especially impressed by them."

However, I do not see them as "practical steps this stream of Christianity presents." I see them as bondage. This is my take on these quotes...BT

"The holier the confessor, the gentler he is, and the less he is scandalized at other people's faults, because he understands man's weak condition better." (page 37]...

This is New Age double talk. The holier the confessor? The Bible says that our righteousness is as filthy rags, and at our best we are unprofitable servants....Bt

"It is important to note that authentic meetings with God produce personal goodness, even heroic goodness that is far beyond human capacity. (page 41).

This, again, is just bad thinking. Authentic meetings with God DO NOT produce personal goodness. Paul met Him a few times, and proclaimed that there was nothing good in himself at all, and Solomon was given two visitations of the highest order, and yet committed evil "heroically"..BT

"Here we have the core of the economy of salvation: salvation effected by union, transformative participation in the divine nature, a beginning in faith of what shall be completed in vision; an eternal enthrallment in Father, Son, and Spirit; purest beauty, joy, and love." (page 64).

A beginning in faith of what shall be completed in vision? where is that in the gospel of Paul. More flowery, syrupy ideas about Nirvana, that contradict the simplicity of the Gospel in their complication and mystic conflict posing as deep revelation...BT

"-...many people unwittingly water down Scripture as they read it. They fail to notice or attend to the uncompromising totality that we read on every page. (page 108).

Implying that his devoted focus to the deeper meaning has unlocked the mystic depth of it all. No, it means what it says, and is simple, direct and clear. It is designed for the most simple, Trust and Obey.

"-...carrying the cross is a gift"...(page 126)

No it's not, it is a COMMAND...BT

"-Love is the measure of our ability to bear crosses. (page 127)

This is derived from the Catholic doctrine of extreme devotion gearing toward living the "Sacrificial Life". [ In this the rigors of the Monastic life are trumpeted, and it is here, and only here that the Priest Class emerges, as the WORTHY CLASS.

It implies that we are called to sacrifice, and the more sacrificial your life is, the more you will be accepted by God; the more sacrificial, the better. So, the more "crosses" you bear, as sacrifices, the more spiritual you become, and the more loving. THIS IS A LIE.

Love is a fruit that is grown by abiding in Christ.BT

"...If anyone is serious about loving God totally, he must willingly entertain no self-centered pursuit of finite things sought for themselves, that is, devoid of honest direction to God, our sole end and purpose."

This is at the Heart of the Ascetic lifestyle that again, requires the candidate pursue self denial through physical means; Whipping ones self, Spartan dress, early rising with minimal food, hoary clothing and so on.It is here, in the monasteries, that these works are taught as a means to gain God's favor. Another works based lie.BT


-'solid love is to be found not hidden away in corners but in dealing with others...in the midst of occasion of sin." (page 227)

No. Love is so much simpler and obvious than this. It is God's glory upon us, and causing that compassion and mercies to flow out to others...as in the Early church; BEHOLD, HOW THEY LOVE ONE ANOTHER!"..it is a fruit!..BT






 2012/4/26 22:53
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada

Online!
 Re:

Saints,

Again we are going to need to re-discover God's purpose for these forums. The main intent and design is to seek to grow in our walks with the Lord, be teachable and learn from others and serve others in this forum setting. Jesus said that to serve others is true "greatness" may we endeavour towards this.

Also towards the naming of individuals does have a place but we so easily can slander or malign a name of a brother for no reason and tie him into our discouragements with certain doctrines or teachers.

Mysticism is a very large topic and there are whole spectrums of what we could call good and bad in it. To say mysticism is flat our wrong can be interesting because even the simple experience of a christian praying is a mystical experience. Also A.W. Tozer and others were called mystics and looked down upon to seek God for Himself and not to get something from Him. Oh how we need a return to such praying that just honours God, seeks to Know Him more and does not come to Him with a large list of our to do's only. This is not dangerous praying but true praying. (John 17:3) to Know God is eternal life.

I have personally visited IHOP many times and though I disagree highly with some of the music methods they use and also their recent acceptance of some holy spirit manifestations that are extra-biblical, yet there is prayer happening there and I would say the danger is the latter not mystical extreme praying.

Their book library is excellent and they are selling some great books that other evangelical churches do not or "would not" have!

I would ask that we would rather on these forums discuss the issues more then the "people" for we can learn something from most men and if they have an extreme doctrine it is usually for a good reason and we can learn much from even their error.

Such a spirit will be one that grows in Christ and does not slander anyone and leaves all judgement to Jesus Christ in that day.

1 Corinthians 4:4-5 NIV

4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.


We are locking this thread and ask the saints to pray about this type of approach on the forums. There are 100's of sites that just post only articles that speak against doctrines, people, and practices. We do not want the forums on SermonIndex to be such.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/4/26 22:58Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy