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Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 To will or not to will...

Quote:
No we are not agreed that human beings have faculty of the soul called 'a will'. If he had used the word 'choose' would we have said that the soul has a faculty called 'the choice'? I think not. We would say 'I' choose, just as Christ says 'I' will.



The question was do human beings have a will, not if the soul has this faculty. Again I ask, what is the soul (according to you)?

Quote:
the word 'will' is not a noun, the will, but a verb. It is I who wills. He does not say 'according to my will' that would indicate something called 'the will'. He simply refers to an action peformable by 'I'.



A verb is a part of speech that expresses existence, action, or occurrence. Behind every verb is a noun. You cannot do, express or exist is something you cannot name. In the very act of willing, you are expressing that part which is called (named) “will” (a noun).

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/9 17:46Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re: To will or not to will...

Quote:
If the 'soul' is the same as 'I' how could God require that something 'I' have, be handed up. If 'I' is the same as the soul we should be able to say "this night thy thou shall be required of thee". We can't because 'soul' is something that 'I' have. This is why 'I' can speak to 'my soul'; it is because 'soul' is not the same as 'I' but is a 'possession' of 'I'.



What then is this “I”, where does it exist and through what does it express itself? I am not saying that the soul is the entire being but it is the most “you” part of your being (you will probably have to re-read this statement a few times before what I am trying to say makes sense. I am sorry; I just do not know how I can express it any better.) I believe the entire person consist of, a “mortal body”, a spirit and a soul. The part, which you can relate to most however, is your soul. This is consistent with the occurrence of the word in scriptures. A lot of things which are attributed to the soul, are what “I” view as an expression of myself.


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/9 18:02Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re: To will or not to will...

This what two dictionaries say concerning the word “will”.

Main Entry: will
Function: noun
1 : the desire, inclination, or choice of a person or group
2 : the faculty of wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending
3 : a legal declaration of a person's wishes regarding the disposal of his or her property after death; especially : a formally executed written instrument by which a person makes disposition of his or her estate to take effect after death —


Will n (the “n” denotes that it is a noun)
1.
a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.
b. The act of exercising the will.
2.
a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win.
b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction.
3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.
4. Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will.
5. Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will.
6. Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will.
7.
a. A legal declaration of how a person wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after death.
b. A legally executed document containing this declaration.





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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/9 18:07Profile
Jimm
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 Re:

Quote:
The word soul is used to denote what it is that you really are. This use suggests that materialists are wrong in claiming they reject the existence of the soul; rather they should say they reject the idea that the soul consists of anything more than the body. The soul relates in a fundamental way to the body, such that the body could almost be said to be part of the soul. Nevertheless, the body is not part of the soul, since that relationship is lost at death. Other aspects of a person, such as the thoughts, ideas, emotions etc. are actually included in the soul. They are not the whole thing. For example, although a strong-willed person would be tempted to equate their will with their soul, they would be wrong to do so.

Is that what you were saying?



Quote:
Since you want more understanding of my position, this is how I would qualify what you have said: The words 'I', 'You', etc. are used in many ways and have a variety of meanings, just as the word 'soul' has. In some cases, 'I' can denote something which is not 'my soul'. However, the normal meaning of these words looks the same as that thing described by the soul. I would therefore be prepared to accept this definition of the word 'soul' if, in the interest of precision, we then agreed to only use words like 'I' or 'we' in the same sense on this thread.



That is it. You have understood me.

Quote:
OK. But please don't now assume that I've done it, rather that I'm doing it (it looks like the sort of thing that would take a while). If you want to wait 'till I'm done before carrying on, I am prepared to do that.



Please take your time. Tell me what you come up with.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/9 18:55Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
This what two dictionaries say concerning the word “will”.



I know that the concept of 'the will' is in the dictionary. My question is, 'is it in the Bible?' :-D

I can see the concept of
Quote:
3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.

in the scriptures, but not of a faculty of the soul.

It is
Quote:
a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.
b. The act of exercising the will.

that I have difficulty with.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/10 3:59Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 What is the soul?

Quote:
I know that the concept of 'the will' is in the dictionary. My question is, 'is it in the Bible?



I agree with you total here sir. The dictionary is not divinely inspired. The entire response was directed at this statement.

Quote:
the word 'will' is not a noun, the will, but a verb. It is I who wills. He does not say 'according to my will' that would indicate something called 'the will'. He simply refers to an action peformable by 'I'.



The only thing to be noted from the dictionary reference was that the word “will” is a noun.

The original definitions here as they would have been understood by a Hebrew or Greek speaking person when the heard the word soul.


“The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon”,

Nephesh-

soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

a. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

b. living being

c. living being (with life in the blood)

d. the man himself, self, person or individual

e. seat of the appetites

f. seat of emotions and passions

g. activity of mind
1. dubious

h. activity of the will
1. dubious

i. activity of the character
1. dubious

“The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon”

1. - breath

a. the breath of life

1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a

b. of animals 1a

2. of men

1. life

2. that in which there is life

1. a living being, a living soul

3. the soul
. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

a. the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

b. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

Having said that I would say that the most compelling reason for my position is the Bible verses (provided in past posts) themselves you do not really have to know Greek and Hebrew to see how many things of what I consider to be “self”. What (if at all you believe there is self) do you consider to be self. What Bible verses do you have to support that belief?

Quote:
No we are not agreed that human beings have faculty of the soul called 'a will'. If he had used the word 'choose' would we have said that the soul has a faculty called 'the choice'? I think not. We would say 'I' choose, just as Christ says 'I' will.



The question was do human beings have a will, not if the soul has this faculty. Again, I ask, what is the soul (according to you)?

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/10 22:05Profile
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 Re: What is the soul?

Quote:
[u]Jimm writes:[/u] The question was do human beings have a will, not if the soul has this faculty. Again, I ask, what is the soul (according to you)?

I can't see anywhere that the Bible uses the concept of 'the will' as a human or divine faculty, place it where you will.

This is a full listing of the Greek noun usually translated ‘the will’. The overwhelming majority of these verses refer to 'God's will'. The Greek word is 'theEma' which means ‘desire, or choice, or determination’. In the matter of God’s will it is often a decree. The point I am making is that it is never, as far as I know, used to designate a faculty known as ‘the will’.

Mat_6:10; Mat_7:21; Mat_12:50; Mat_18:14; Mat_21:31; Mat_26:42; Mar_3:35; Luk_11:2; Luk_12:47; Luk_22:42; Luk_23:25; Joh_1:13; Joh_4:34; Joh_5:30; Joh_6:38; Joh_6:39; Joh_6:40; Joh_7:17; Joh_9:31; Act_13:22; Act_21:14; Act_22:14; Rom_1:10; Rom_2:18; Rom_12:2; Rom_15:32; 1Co_1:1; 1Co_7:37; 1Co_16:12; 2Co_1:1; 2Co_8:5; Gal_1:4; Eph_1:1; Eph_1:5; Eph_1:9; Eph_1:11; Eph_2:3; Eph_5:17; Eph_6:6; Col_1:1; Col_1:9; Col_4:12; 1Th_4:3; 1Th_5:18; 2Ti_1:1; 2Ti_2:26; Heb_10:7; Heb_10:9; Heb_10:10; Heb_10:36; Heb_13:21; 1Pe_2:15; 1Pe_3:17; 1Pe_4:2; 1Pe_4:3; 1Pe_4:19; 2Pe_1:21; 1Jo_2:17; 1Jo_5:14; Rev_4:11;

The verse that comes closest to indicating a human faculty called ‘the will’ is 1Co 7:37 [i]Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.[/i] But if we recall the real meaning of the word thelEma, we can see we are really in the area of desire or intention.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/11 4:38Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Me, myself and I.

Ron

I think a certain amount of “reading between the lines” is called for concerning the will. Consider this:

Romans 7:14-25 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I [b]would[/b], that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I [b]would[/b] not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to [b]will[/b] is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I [b]would[/b] I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I [b]would[/b]not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Quote:
the word 'will' is not a noun, the will, but a verb. It is I who wills. He does not say 'according to my will' that would indicate something called 'the will'. He simply refers to an action peformable by 'I'.



Quote:
No we are not agreed that human beings have faculty of the soul called 'a will'. If he had used the word 'choose' would we have said that the soul has a faculty called 'the choice'? I think not. We would say 'I' choose, just as Christ says 'I' will.



Now I am sure you will point to the word “I” rather than “will” and “would”. Your position is noted and understood ;-) … Whether you realize it or not, you are delegating the will to “I” I have no problem with that. The concept of “I” Biblically is just as vague if not more vague than the concept of the “soul”, yet because the word “I” is used in everyday speech it is easy to discern. The reference to the soul today is only used by the new-ageists and false religions this is tragic but it really does not matter. Whether we refer to this inner being as “I” or the “soul” these are simply words we use to convey meaning and communicate intelligibly. You may say, “it is I who goes to heaven or hell” (I wonder if you believe that)and I may say “it is my soul which goes to heaven or hell” but we are actually referring to the same thing, it is just that we are more comfortable with the use of a certain word.

Consider this:

Isaiah 58:3Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.

In one sense I could say that I have afflicted my soul by fasting. It is more common language today however to say I have afflicted my[i]self[/i] by fasting. This “self” is what the soul refers to. Are we on one accord on this matter? If not what in your opinion is the “soul” and what is “I”, biblically? And what of the literal Hebrew and Greek translations? Whay have you dismissed these?

James
:-( :-(


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/11 21:11Profile





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