SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Verses that supposedly point to loosing salvation examined...

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 Next Page )
PosterThread
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Verses that supposedly point to loosing salvation examined...

I was discussing various verses with a good friend of mine that are used by those who say that one can lose their salvation and he encouraged me to post my thoughts here to allow others to comment on what I was saying to him.

So I will post the verses and my thoughts on them here...one set of verses per post, and would ask anyone who cares to comment to share their thoughts with us.

A problem that I see when looking at these verses is that many people ADD thoughts to them that are simply not warranted by what is actually said. Please stick to what is actually said in the plain meaning of what is written without encamping yourself around thoughts that are not to be found in the text itself.

Thanks.

Carlos

 2012/4/21 4:38Profile
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

Quote:

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.



Paul is talking about building into the lives of those who have become Christians. Paul laid the foundation of the Gospel and Jesus into their lives and someone else is building on top of the foundation Paul laid.

Quote:

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.



Paul uses the things that might be used in the physical realm to build an actual building to highlight a point about building into people's lives spiritually. That some of that which is built will survive and be proven to be of eternal worth and lasting value and some will not.

The day is most likely the Day of Judgement when God's refining fire will expose all that was built into people's lives as either of worth or worthless.

This is not the only place where Paul uses physical objects to make a spiritual point. See 2 Timothy 2:20-21 for another example of this type of analogy.

Quote:

If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.



If any man's work into people's lives has been built on the sure foundation of Christ and is shown to be so when it is exposed by God, he will receive a reward for his labors.

If, on the other hand, his work in people's lives is shown to be worthless he will suffer loss but he will suffer that loss in regard to his life's work and NOT his eternal salvation. He will still be saved yet will be so through God's refining fire.

Quote:

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.



This last part is the more useful to a loss of salvation perspective or seemingly so but we must be careful with our interpretation here.

We, the Christians, are the temple of God. The building of God (vs 9). If any man destroys God's temple, the church, God will destroy that man. For the temple, the Christians, are holy and that is in fact what we Christians are. Holy in the eyes of God.

There is absolutely not one thing about a loss of salvation in any of the above verses! This last verse talks about someone destroying the temple of God, the people of God and the very foundation that His temple is built on...Jesus Christ.

It is NOT talking about a Christian destroying his own life such that they lose their salvation as a result. It's talking about someone coming in and destroying the church.

Such a person will be destroyed by God but there is absolutely NO indication that said destroyer was or is a Christian and could well be an unbeliever or unbelievers.

Carlos



 2012/4/21 5:27Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re: 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

i agree with you bro that a true elect saint will endure till the end ,,but you are taking those verses out of it contex and aplying it to the believer ,wile paul is aplying it to apolus verses 5;6;7;8;9; are to be kept in the contex of the chapter
paul plants the foundation seed and apolus waters ,and builds upon the foundation ,,,he will be saved yet so as through fire tho his work may be burned

more then likely the destroying of the temple ,is a temperal judment and is death of the body ,in the same contex when believers are judged for not deserning the lords body in the breaking of bread and drinking of the wine ,,as paul said becase of not dersening the body ,, some are sick ,and some sleap,,,,and he goes on to say in the same chapter that this is the lords judment on the believer so that he be not condemed with the world


your right tho in saying this chapter does not speak of believers losing salvation , in my opinion


blessings

 2012/4/21 8:43Profile
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Hello Brogary, what is the purpose of the warning passages in scripture and who are those warning directed to?

Russ

 2012/4/21 9:03Profile
Solomon101
Member



Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand

 Re:

Hey CarlosBGC ,

Just a couple of thoughts here.

1. There was recently a massively long thread on this issue. There have also been many, many that go down this same path. Perhaps you might research those threads in your time on SI as those topics have been covered over pretty thoroughly.

2. The topic causes so much contention that the moderators have asked that it not be discussed as it tends to consistently bring disunity and fighting. There are MANY scriptures on each side of the argument. That is why it will never be fully reconciled by us on this side of eternity. Each side has an abundance of scriptures to support their view. They simply do... and in the end they are just shooting them at each other.

3. In my 4 years on Sermon Index I have never seen anyone change an opinion. Saw lots of heated discussion... but no one changed their opinions. No one is as dangerous as a Christian who, "knows they are right", and feels it is their job to straighten out all the other believers theological leanings.

4. As far as the specific scriptures you mentioned.... The scriptures you used are not ones I have ever seen used as a basis for a person having the ability to walk away from, renounce, or lose their salvation. There are hundreds of scriptures that strongly support the Arminian view that a person could possibly renounce their faith, or turn away from following Jesus, to their own eternal destruction. However, those you posted certainly do not. Even the most hard core Arminians I know would not be using them. Your analysis of it being a judgment on false teachers who are destroying the church is 100% spot on. Paul says that exact thing in the chapter. No need to interpret it... Paul tells us exactly what he meant. That being said...there is an abundance of scriptures that DO say a person could actually be "saved" and then later "lost".... as well as other scriptures that indicate they could not.

Thus the conflict.

Blessings!

 2012/4/21 9:22Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
There are hundreds of scriptures that strongly support the Arminian view that a person could possibly renounce their faith, or turn away from following Jesus, to their own eternal destruction. However, those you posted certainly do not.



I agree. Contextually they left me scratching my head as to their relevance on the subject of eternal security.

 2012/4/21 10:30Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

If we deny Him He will _________ us before His Father in Heaven.

 2012/4/21 10:52Profile









 Can we crucify the carnal mind? I think so. Faith lies in our heart.

The problem I have with these discussions is that they drift so much into the doctrinal, theological fortresses, that they transfer faith there also. [ I'm guilty. ]

Faith does not exist solely in your mind. Yes, we are to put on the mind of Christ, even in our doctrinal thinking, but our true faith lives in our heart.

Peer, or party doctrines, seem to derive credibility from schools of thought, that they quickly transfer the FAITH word too, and soon, everyone involved seems to say; "We Believe.....this or that,... and look at you with a strait face and declare it to be their Faith. It is not. It is their idea about faith, which transforms itself into DOGMA so fast. This is where the Cults are born, by the way.

There are 20,000 to 30,000 Protestant Denomination in the World..[ not counting independent and home churches]. Everyone of them "believes" something a little different...or a whole lot! than the other. It obviously can get a little weird, Eh?

Even if in the end, we have a perfect doctrine, that sorts out each and every jot and tittle of Biblical Correctness, we must realize that this will not, cannot save you. God always looks upon the Heart, and man looks upon the outward. Faith must emerge from your heart and spirit; your mind and thoughts really don't matter much.

When we all stand before the Living God, He will not be interested in what we "believe", but in Whether we received cleansing mercy through the sacrifice of His Son, and attained unto Holiness. How many [ I fear ] will stand there on that day with everything right, except that they did not learn how to love, and be judged dead?

God's children will possess the fruit of a life that loved Him in reality, and others with the merciful extension of that same love. Whether you think you are saved or maybe wonder if you are, is immaterial; God's decision is final.

"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Build on the Rock; live Eternally with the Rock. Some people are going to be dreadfully surprised.

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and DOES them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock." This one will be saved.

I am not talking here about rightly dividing the Truth and the Word, or pursuing doctrinal Purity. With out doctrinal Purity we will be destined to have an impure church,and in avoiding this, we must seek right thinking, and faith to sort out Truth and the Path.

I want to add, that I have never once seen anyone converted form their stance by discussing it, and more often than not, people's ideas are challenged, and they feel like their faith is attacked, and a war emerges.

For me,
I want to bend to the scripture, and let it dominate me, and crush me, as Lord of my thinking.

"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,

And bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled."
Paul

In this there is constant failure, repentance in my thoughts, along with a constant pressing in, to be possessed by Him; Much warfare in the mind.....

 2012/4/21 11:45
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37391
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re: Can we crucify the carnal mind? I think so. Faith lies in our heart.

Quote:
3. In my 4 years on Sermon Index I have never seen anyone change an opinion. Saw lots of heated discussion... but no one changed their opinions. No one is as dangerous as a Christian who, "knows they are right", and feels it is their job to straighten out all the other believers theological leanings.



Dear Brother,

I agree sadly that these discussions can lead to fruitfulness arguing and not looking at the Scriptures with our own live. If we all approached all these threads and discussions with an open heart saying Lord change me, Lord hold me, Lord make me different like your Son. Then we would change. I do now some that have changed dramatically being on these forums and having a tender teachable heart that compares everything to Scripture not a tradition of what a man says.

I believe if we look at the Bible with clear hearts to see its truths we will change not only in your opinions and interpretations but we will change in our own daily lives.

It is a valid question to ask why are there warning verses and there absolutely are verses that pre-suppose you can lose your salvation. They are there to keep us on the narrow way and help us to cling to Christ. There is no security in claiming the elect will never lose their salvation, there is ONLY security when clinging and trusting fully in the Person of Jesus Christ.

The one brother brings up an excellent verse:

If we deny Him, He will deny us.


1st and 2nd timothy are full of verses that speak of apostasy. Is the context for these verses just timothy as a co-worker or can they be applied to all? Context is important saints but let us remember all the Bible was written for our admonition who upon the ends of the world are coming.

May we all have "great grace" and "kindness" to all the other saints on this forum. May we all by our words and comments "wash onanothers feet" which in the eyes of our Lord is much more important then having all our 100% doctrines right.

Bless you all as you endeavour to write and discuss these things in meekness.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2012/4/21 11:59Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

That's a great exhortation, Greg.

I just have one more thing to add.

The Purpose of Grace

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and PURIFY unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).

Today, the emphasis is put on forgiveness instead of righteousness. Is there more than forgiveness? Is there freedom from sin? Or do we just slap the bumper sticker on our car "Christians aren't perfect just forgiven." What this is saying is, "I'm a sinner just like you, but I'm forgiven and you are not." Then we do whatever we want and every night before we go to sleep, we just ask the Lord to forgive us." That my friends is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that kind of thinking is even a scandal to the world.

May the Lord help us to come under His authority, receive His truth, operate in the spirit of reconciliation and increasingly walk in righteousness.

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; (2Co 3:18)

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, ARE CHANGED into the same image FROM GLORY TO GLORY, even as BY THE Spirit of the Lord. (2Co 3:18)

Pilgrim

Remember, Salvation is not a commodity you own because you ascended to some belief 20 years ago. Salvation is a person that you stay rightly related to. Abiding in Him and not shrinking back because of unbelief or turning away because of persecution, offenses or bitterness.

 2012/4/21 13:17Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy