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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Thanks for the many replies, the encouragement, and the advice.

I have selected some of quotes from the post so far.

Quote: Every Truth that He's spoken, Satan has come up with a counterfeit for.

Your are correct, this is one of the reasons why I am posting on this thread, I want to be challenged by your replies.

Quote: Brother forgive me for being practical. But our walk with Christ is practical.

I am not a theologian myself and I am more comfortable doing practical things than theory. It’s important to have the theory correct but the far more important issue is the practical aspect of the Christian’s life and “how we walk in our day to day life”. How does Paul put it “loud clanging cympal”

Quote: We only can have one nature, It is impossible to have two natures!

Quote: We either have the nature of God or the nature of Satan. We have no independent nature apart from from one of them.

Okay I here what you’re saying, but from what I have been shown by Holy Spirit in my own life it points to this not being the case. You are free to challenge me on this come up with some scriptures and examples.

Quote: We have the imprints and patterns and memory of sin in this flesh and that is why we must renew our mind and choose life each minute of each day and not death.

Okay so we only have one nature but there are only imprints patterns and memory of sin.

What do you mean by patterns could I say “sinful habit” and it would mean the same?

What do you mean by a memory of sin? The bible says that “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he” Pro 23:7 So can I say then if you think about a sinful act then I am a sinner?

What do you mean by Imprint of sin? Do you mean a distinguishing influence or effect for example something that causes you to sin.

Oh when the fire of temptation comes, you’ll soon find out what you are. Cry out to God “Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts” I encourage you people pray and seek for the truth. Can we say that “The Evil One has nothing in me” I know I can’t that’s a question you have to ask yourself and if he has how much does he have?
Quote: We either have the nature of God or the nature of Satan. We have no independent nature apart from one of them.

Well I could understand your point if you said we can be only influenced by God or the Devil but your saying more than that…

Scripture says “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live” Deut 30:19

God telling us to choose which means to me we do have an independent nature that can choose between blessing or curse. I choose to believe in Christ and would say that I sought for him, was the Spirit of God influencing me to seek for Christ sure he was but I had to make the choice. We are not automatons we have a choice, choose life.

Quote: So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Oh you have me remembering about when I first found out that God was real and that he was alive and in me, oh how happy I was to be forgiven of my sins the rejoicing and the love that flowed into me. The change in this man was “radical” as was said at the time… That was my “experience” of righteousness to be in right standing with God and I knew it was real for me.

Quote: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 
Rom 8:14

Choices we all have to choose to be led by the Spirit, Jesus said take up your cross and follow me, we have to choose to lay our life down, Christ paid the price for Sin but we have to choose to pick up the cross and be led by the Spirit of God. Words mean nothing if it’s not a reality in your life. Paul the Apostle says “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” Are you crucified with Christ are you surrendered fully to the leadings of the Spirit I know I am not…

Quote: The absolute saddest part is that The church does not know that when Jesus emptied Himself and walked this earth as man - He was what He has made us.

Quote: That we have ALL that Jesus had while here, within us now.

Jesus did not have SIN in him, not one spot of it he is perfect and he will always be perfect for us. I remember something very vividly from my days as a new Christian it was a truth I believe God wanted me to understand. God starts the work inside the man and works his way out, but men start from the outside and try and work there way in.

Gods says “I will put a new spirit within them” we have as Christians a new spirit and the work has started, but we must go on from there, there must be an overcoming of habits, wicked thoughts, envy, strife, lying cheating, all unclean thoughts must be banished, all and influence and effect must be gone until we can say “The Evil One has nothing in me.




_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/4/19 15:34Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

We have already seen how the old man was like an unfaithful servant who allowed the thieves to enter the home. That old man however has been crucified, put off and buried. There is a new man now within us, who says, "Behold I have come to do Thy will, O God" (Heb. 10:7).

Yet we know that it's possible for a disciple of Jesus to sin. But there is a difference between a disciple sinning and an unbeliever sinning, just as there is a difference between a cat falling into dirty water and a pig choosing to jump into the dirty water! The cat hates the dirty water, but may fall into it accidentally. The pig, however, loves it. It's all a question of nature. The disciple of Jesus has a new nature that loves purity and hates sin.

The old man wants to sin. The new man never wants to sin. But if the new man is not strong enough, he may not be able to keep the door of his heart shut against the desires of the flesh. That's not because he wants those desires. No. But because he is not strong enough to resist them. This may be, because he has not fed himself sufficiently on the Word of God, or because he has not strengthened himself through prayer.

So, there's a difference between committing sin and falling into sin. It's important to know this difference; for we can then avoid a lot of unnecessary feelings of condemnation in our heart.

The Bible says that "the one who practises sin (that is, one who keeps on committing sin deliberately) is of the devil" (1 Jn. 3:8). On the other hand, he writes to believers saying, "If anyone sins (that is, if one falls into sin accidentally), we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He is the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn. 2:1,2).

Zac Poonen


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2012/4/19 15:37Profile









 Re:

Brother Colin, are you saying that Jesus had no freewill as a man? He didn't sin and when He rose, He gave His Believers His Nature. We sin by choice. We're self-focused. He wasn't.

If "no good thing dwells In your flesh" - then WHY on earth would you focus incessantly on your flesh/Self ??? Who wants to look at "no good thing"?
"Forget You!" was a quote from a sermon on this issue. Our minds are programmed from birth for it to be "all about US".
"Accusing or Excusing" - or seeking the attention or glory.
GET YOUR EYES OFF OF YOUR*SELF* and Look TO HIM, The Author and Finisher of our Faith and our Sanctification - "For WITHOUT ME you can do *NOTHING*." Joh 15:5
"By Faith"- "When I Return, will I find faith upon the earth?"
Looking unto Jesus. Having the mind of Christ - taking EVERY THOUGHT Captive To The Obedience 'OF' Christ - As He was in this earth being our Example and of what He died to make 'us' as well.
Loving GOD - taking no thought for our own wants, desires, comforts but only Loving Him and desiring to be 'others-only-always' minded as He was. ["But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6]
We can't and won't satisfy the lusts of the flesh if our eyes are OFF of our SELF and we are walking as He did - Selfless and dependent on His Spirit - Living For Him and For Others Only - as He did by The Spirit. Living Sacrifices.
Who has 'time' to cater to their flesh while seeking out and asking for His Will through His WORD and to hear His Will through His Voice and while being a living sacrifice unto GOD for others ? Not for our own Glory - but that HE may receive all of the Glory, as a return for His Sacrifice for us, which is our 'reasonable' service - but the flesh wants the glory, even in our "woe is me" times.

Why are we still so "us" focused? How many more sermons do we need to hear that focus our eyes upon US ? We 'are' what we're Looking at - [with our minds eye as well.]
TV - movies - our SELF - what are we looking at or to? A man? Someone to hold our hand and get us safely through the pearly gates? When will our eyes be single? Looking unto Jesus - The Word of GOD made flesh And Written.


Luk 11:33-36 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a 'candlestick', that they which come in may see the light.
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.


Prayer: Psa 119:105,106 Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.



From "The Treasury of David" - Spurgeon ~

Psa_119:105
“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet.” We are walkers through the city of this world, and we are often called to go out into its darkness; let us never venture there without the light-giving word, lest we slip with our feet. Each man should use the word of God personally, practically, and habitually, that he may see his way and see what lies in it. When darkness settles down upon all around me, the word of the Lord, like a flaming torch, reveals my way. Having no fixed lamps in eastern towns, in old time each passenger carried a lantern with him that he might not fall into the open sewer, or stumble over the heaps of ordure which defiled the road. This is a true picture of our path through this dark world, we should not know the way, or how to walk in it, if the Scripture, like a blazing flambeau, did not reveal it. One of the most practical benefits of Holy Writ is guidance in the acts of daily life; it is not sent to astound us with its brilliance, but to guide us by its instruction. It is true the head needs illumination, but even more the feet need direction, else head and feet may both fall into a ditch. Happy is the man who personally appropriates God's word, and practically uses it as his comfort and counsellor, - a lamp to his own feet. “And a light unto my path.” It is a lamp by night, a light by day, and a delight at all times. David guided his own steps by it, and also saw the difficulties of his road by its beams. He who walks in darkness is sure, sooner or later, to stumble; while he who walks by the light of day, or by the lamp of night, stumbleth not, but keeps his uprightness. Ignorance is painful upon practical subjects; it breeds indecision and suspense, and these are uncomfortable: the word of God, by imparting heavenly knowledge, leads to decision, and when that is followed by determined resolution, as in this case, it brings with it great restfulness of heart.
This verse converses with God in adoring and yet familiar tones. Have we not something of like tenor to address to our heavenly Father?
Note how like this verse is to Psa_1:1, and Psa_119:9 and other octaves. The seconds also are often in unison.


Psa_119:106
“I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.” Under the influence of the clear light of knowledge he had firmly made up his mind and solemnly declared his resolve in the sight of God. Perhaps mistrusting his own fickle mind, he had pledged himself in sacred form to abide faithful to the determinations and decisions of his God. Whatever path might open before him, he was sworn to follow that only upon which the lamp of the word was shining. The Scriptures are God's judgments, or verdicts, upon great moral questions; these are all righteous, and hence righteous men should be resolved to keep them at all hazards, since it must always be right to do right. Experience shows that the less of covenanting and swearing men formally enter upon the better, and the genius of our Saviour's teaching is against all supererogatory pledging and swearing; and yet under the gospel we ought to feel ourselves as much bound to obey the word of the Lord as if we had taken an oath so to do. The bonds of love are not less sacred than the fetters of law. When a man has vowed he must be careful to “perform it,” and when a man has not vowed in so many words to keep the Lord's judgments, yet is he equally bound to do so by obligations which exist apart from any promise on our part, - obligations founded in the eternal fitness of things, and confirmed by the abounding goodness of the Lord our God. Will not every believer own that he is under bonds to the redeeming Lord to follow his example, and keep his words? Yes, the vows of the Lord are upon us, especially upon such as have made profession of discipleship, have been baptized into the thrice-holy name, have eaten of the consecrated memorials, and have spoken in the name of the Lord Jesus. We are enlisted, and sworn in, and are bound to be loyal soldiers all through the war. Thus having taken the word into our hearts by a firm resolve to obey it, we have a lamp within our souls as well as in the Book, and our course will be light unto the end.


 2012/4/19 15:44
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

This an interesting subject because it deals with the reality of how we live out what we claim to believe, rather than just having objective truth, but not experiential truth. "Faith without works is dead". i.e. useless/ of no benefit. Objective truth MUST result in a practical demonstration of that truth.

Paul tells us in Romans 6
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin........... Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God."

Seems to me that Paul is saying that we need to understand what has actually happened to us in Christ (objective truth) and then apply this truth to our lives, because it is really true! BUT he does imply it is possible for a true believer to yield to unrighteousness and sin.

Hasn't some one written a book about mortification :)


_________________
Dave

 2012/4/19 16:06Profile









 Re: Sins forgiven and the old man crucified

We are sinners. Each and every one of us. Can anyone deny that? of course not. Our heavenly Father created us in this manner and gave us instructions to overcome.

His whole purpose is to test our obedience to his word, his righteousness, his laws, statutes and commandments which has the power to convert us. Psalm 19:7-14

Yahweh's law is perfect, converting the soul. More desirable than fine than gold…..

VERSE 13 Keep back your servant also from presumptuous sins. Let them not have dominion over me.
This means that if you don’t practice righteousness, sin will have dominion over you.

Read what he told Cain, “If you don’t practice righteousness, sin is crouching at your door” it desires to have you, but you must OVERCOME IT.

Now, let’s read what the new testament says about the subject. 1 John 3:4-9
Let no one deceive you, He Who Practices Righteousness Is Righteous.

So what is Righteousness? …

Hallelu-Yahweh

 2012/4/19 16:12









 Re:

Quote:
Yet we know that it's possible for a disciple of Jesus to sin. But there is a difference between a disciple sinning and an unbeliever sinning, just as there is a difference between a cat falling into dirty water and a pig choosing to jump into the dirty water! The cat hates the dirty water, but may fall into it accidentally. The pig, however, loves it. It's all a question of nature. The disciple of Jesus has a new nature that loves purity and hates sin.



Very nice!

 2012/4/19 16:16
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """We only can have one nature. We are now a totally new creation.
Our old nature is crucified, dead and buried!!!
It is impossible to have two natures!

We still live in a corrupted body but our body is not our nature.

Our mind needs renewing but our mind is not our nature.

We have a new heart and Christ Himself living within us."""

Me too tuc; Amen

This body is not our future body.

Our mind is becoming future by being renewed to the mind of Christ.

Our Spirit is already perfect, now and forever, it is the Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/4/19 16:52Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Seems to me that Paul is saying that we need to understand what has actually happened to us in Christ (objective truth) and then apply this truth to our lives, because it is really true!

Amen and Amen

Romans 6:6, “Knowing this.”

And then in Romans 6:11 he says: 
“Likewise also reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God.”

Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

That order is logical. First of all you have to know the scriptural fact. Then by personal reckoning you have to apply it to yourself. You have to reckon yourself to be dead indeed to sin. Then by an act of consecration you yield yourself unto God.

---------------

Quote: We sin by choice. We're self-focused.

Your so right we are so self focused, my reason for posting JIG is simply this. I don’t want to remain self-focused, I want to get to the truth, I wan’t to know and believe it. It all started in Eden when Adam ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

The Soul became the master instead of the Spirit, the order was turned around instead of Spirit, Soul and Body we have, Soul, Body Spirit following our mind, will and emotions.

When God puts that new spirit in you the work has begun, your sins are forgiven, your justified and separated unto God, but we then have to “know this” that the old man is crucified with him and then recon ourselves dead to sin and consecrate ourselves to God yield to his Spirit… It doesn’t matter whether we know it or believe it it’s true. But knowing it and believing it is going to change you and me.

As you keep walking, trusting God, God in his goodness will get you to place to let you know your condition, he’ll show you and make you aware of that sin that remains because of the fall of Adam. God has made it very real to me.

----------

Quote: Yet we know that it's possible for a disciple of Jesus to sin.

Yes you are so right look at Peter he denied he knew Jesus, Judas he betrayed him.

Quote: The new man is not strong enough?

But why would the new man not be strong enough the word says “born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and abides forever”

Quote: But if the new man is not strong enough, he may not be able to keep the door of his heart shut against the desires of the flesh.

The heart. If you study the word heart in the bible, you’ll find that it can described like this Mind, Will and Emotions thats what we also class as your Soul. This is the area we need victory in..

Now if you had said to me Spirit that would have been a different story, our Spirit is Born of the “incorruptible seed” the Spirit is the home of New Man.

The battle lies in the Soul, the Spirit wants control but the Soul is strong because Adam ate of the fruit, we had to put out of the Garden of Eden as “man became like god” Gen 3:22 and we had to be put out in case we ate the fruit of life.

We are like god to ourselves, we love ourselves, we put ourselves first, we are so self reliant, self willed, self self self.

In God's kingdom there is no place for self. There is only one cure and it’s the cross, “know it” “recon it” and believe it and yield yourself to God. That’s the key knowing it and believing it and yielding yourself to God is going to change you and me.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/4/19 19:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Your so right we are so self focused, my reason for posting JIG is simply this. I don’t want to remain self-focused, I want to get to the truth, I wan’t to know and believe it. It all started in Eden when Adam ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

.... he’ll show you and make you aware of that sin that remains because of the fall of Adam.



We can't blame Adam anymore. The Last Adam came and took our Adam onto the Cross with Him. We're crucified 'with' Christ. We're just dealing with our self-centered self/flesh.

Yes, every minute of the day, a thought could cross our minds that we know is not from Him and even that has a remedy according to His Word - not any of us. We need to stay with just His Word and nothing else that anyone else says. But what The LORD laid on my heart in that last post was - How do we spend our time? That seems to be the clincher.
Who has 'time' to cater to the flesh while seeking Him, seeking His Word, seeking His will of what to do next, when seeking His Face, when seeking to give Him His due Glory, when seeking to share love to Him or for Him to the lost or hurting? Our "time" should not be 'our own'. Compared to the riches of 'Eternity' - there aren't enough hours in a day to do all of the above that our spirits are craving for - so who has time to cater to their flesh as their thoughts are centered on themselves and eating up whatever short time we have on earth to send up our treasures and heart to Heaven?


Pro 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

 2012/4/19 19:37
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Christinyou,

I agree with you that our mind is not what some call our sin nature else why would God say to renew it with the Word. You cannot renew something that is inherently sinful.

I agree that our body is not our nature (sin nature) either. The body by itself is just a carton. We are told to yield our members (mind and body) to righteousness and not to unrighteousness. So, our body and mind are good and we are commanded to yield them to righteousness. They are neither unrighteous or righteous.

Our soul is not our sin nature otherwise why would God say to love Him with all of our soul. God does not tell us to love Him with all of our sin nature (soul). Our soul consists of our faculties given to us by God whereby we think, choose and express ourselves (mind, will, emotions). We express ourselves IN CHRIST, now. We are redeemed and sanctified by Christ.

Our spirit was dead in trespasses and sins and now has been made alive in Christ.

So we are joined to the Lord and are one Spirit with Him.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

That covers body (carton, vessel, temple), soul (who we are, personality, mind, will and emotions) and our spirit.

The apostle Paul refers to our “spirit, soul, and body” (I Thess. 5:23) being kept in blameless function until the coming of Christ.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where is this human nature? Where did this concept come from?

So, Colin, Here is a word study on "Nature" and "Natural" from James Fowler and I am just going to post the link here for you rather than the content as I want to keep this post short. He shows where this concept came from (not Hebrew thought, but Greek thought) and how it was then introduced into Christianity.

A Word Study of "Nature" and "Natural"
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/nature.html

And then if you get through that word study, I think you would find "Towards a Christian Understanding of Man" very useful. http://www.christinyou.net/pages/understandman.html

These two studies corrected erroneous thinking that I had somehow received as "mainstream christian thought".

Blessings to you as you read and consider,
Pilgrim













 2012/4/20 1:01Profile





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