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 Re:

Amen brother... that was right on the money. We heap up for ourselves teaches who just tickle the ears. We've become such a "positive" "seeker-friendly" mushy church... and we've obstructed the truth. "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" is used to make converts, instead of helping them see their wretchedness. Lovey dovey Christianity is nice... but not at the cost of the truth.

And as you pointed out... rebuking someone, or warning of a certain teacher is a serious thing, and our motivation must always be love. Love of the truth, love of seeing a brother or sister restored, etc etc.

Good post, bro
Krispy

 2005/2/4 14:37
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Hi Krispy,

We have discussed this many times on SI before. We all know here that Jesus is not all about lovey dovey everything. We have discussed (many times)the whole "seeker sensative" message and churches, etc.....You really don't know us yet, but maybe with time. :)

Most of us on here (regulars) have all heard most of the main messages on SI. And we agree. but as Robert said , it is the spirit behind it. Is it because you just want to be right? Or is it because your heart aches and groans for the deceived and lost. I know what God feels for His people who have turned against Him with their betrayal and their heart idolatry and their heart adultry (turning to other loves- not real people) I learned this last week even deeper. yes, He is upset and angry- but it also hurts Him very much. He loves His people and wants them reconciled to Him so much. He longs for them to turn back to Him. Read Ezekiel 16 or Hosea. Anguish must be behind the repentance message. You know if someone has lived it when they preach it. They must have first hand knowldege of this anguish. Just like Hosea.

I think most of us on SI are not concerned about offending people. I offend people all the time. By my living mostly, not only my words.. my actions, my obedience to Christ. My family members and other "christians" do not like to see another believer walking in obedience because it convicts them. Not by arguing with them or trying to prove them wrong. I am more concerned that the inside of the cup is clean.

Not only is there too much lukewarmness in the church, but there is too much hypocrisy. Saying one thing and doing another. Preaching a message and living a lie. The Lord must refine, and refine those who are to bring a repentance message - until there is nothing left but Christ.

I just hope for my soul's sake and for the testimony of Jesus -if I ever rebuke, I am free from hidden sin.

In His love, chanin


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Chanin

 2005/2/4 15:00Profile









 Re:

That was a great post... and I agree with it 100%.

Krispy

 2005/2/4 15:08
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

In this field the spirit of the action is everything. Jesus never screamed rebukes nor said them through clenched teeth. Unless God gives very clear discernment we must be particularly cautious about judging motives.

[i]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.[/i] (Joh 5:30 KJV)

1)if I am consciously aware of my own nothingness and inability,and
2)if I have heard God's clear voice in my heart and
3)if I am sure that I am seeking God's will and not my own,
4) if I am sure that God has sent me into this setting...
then my judgment may be just; otherwise I had better be careful.

[i]So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.[/i] (Jam 2:12-13 KJV)




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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/4 15:28Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I meant that this is a General who knows how to get the job done, and is obviously not concerned with being politically correct. (I suggest you look into this man's service record... he needs to learn to not express himself so brashly, but his record is impeccable.)


It's so often our speech that gives us away...

[i]And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. [/i](Rev 13:11 KJV)

He may be good at 'looking the part' but if he speaks like a dragon you may be sure he is a dragon.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/4 15:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:
In this field the spirit of the action is everything. Jesus never screamed rebukes nor said them through clenched teeth. Unless God gives very clear discernment we must be particularly cautious about judging motives.



Right on... very good word, brother.

Krispy

 2005/2/4 15:35
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
as Robert said , it is the spirit behind it. Is it because you just want to be right? Or is it because your heart aches and groans for the deceived and lost.



Krispy, since I know you so well ;-) I do understand where you're coming from. I know you care about the Lord's commands and you believe in protecting the "sheep". What Robert and Chanin said above is so true though. I think when we (Body of Christ) speak against sin, it can't be just because we are going "by the Book"..........there has to be a great grieving towards those who are lost in their sin or deceived in sin. Our ultimate goal must always be for reconcilation and restoration. Unfortunately, on the internet many cannot see the "grieving" of the person typing. They just know they don't like their words. I'm a pretty matter of fact person, like you, so I know people get offended by me. The thing is, people who are offended, don't see my stomach in knots. This is not a good medium for clear communication-----especially with heartfelt concerns. I know you are speaking from the heart----though you ex Marines are a bit rough around the edges---unlike us ex Air Force people---gentle souls that we are:-D

Anyways, don't confuse this site with the other one, because truly Krispy, they are nothing alike, believe me. On the other site, a small minority were Word focused, Gentle spirited people. Here, the majority are. Stick around for awhile and you will see that. Blessings brother. In Him, Cindyw


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Cindy

 2005/2/4 21:15Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I thought I might throw out some excerpts from a tractate I'm am starting called Real Zeal. There is a disturbing trend I have noticed of late that troubles me greatly. I never knew there was so much contention between the Church and folks who are just fed up. The whole "Out-of-Church" movement was pretty new to me this time last year, but since then I have learned quite a bit.

I personally know people who are so angry at the church that they refuse to go back. They pray at home and serve God at home. They refuse any contact with the church. They spend lots of time pointing out all of the faults of churches. I understand they are upset, but there are some very disturbing trends here.

If anyone despises easy-believism and sin it would be me I suppose; not that I detest it more than others, but I dare say as much. So it was quite strange for me once to be at a house prayer meeting and a brother came in and started in on me. He even used curse words as he talked. I was the only 'church' goer there, so I was his point of contact. Pretty soon, it got out of hand. The brother whose house it was rose to his feet and dismissed him and his wife from the home and exhorted them to repent. That was my first real taste of the anger and resentment being leveled on the church for the shortcomings. No one measured up to his standards.

The issues run the full spectrum when it comes to being upset. It could be anything from a 'soft' Gospel to an emphasis on money. Some it is more personal between the pastor and them. These are probably all legitimate problems, and we all agree on that if they are. The concern I have is for those who might be tempted to feed their zeal for God with the 'meat' of being angry at the Church. This is the biting and devouring of one another that Paul speaks of in Galatians 6. This can be very dangerous. Pretty soon instead of looking to the Holy Ghost for an unction, we look at a problem and are fueled in our zeal. That is fine until we lash out at the Bride of Christ. We must remember that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.

Zeal is something we have to keep a bridle on in our personal lives. It cuts like a two edged sword. Zeal is a good thing if it is fueled by legitimate means; if not, it will lead to a root of bitterness towards men in the name of God. I have done extensive studies of the [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1951]The "Robbers"[/url], the [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1952]The Assassins[/url] and [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1950] THE ZEALOTS[/url]. One thing I have found, in time the zeal for God jumps the rails and heads in all sorts of directions for self-interest. What started out as one thing- slowly became more and more radical and unmerciful. And thus is the progression that must never come about; never can we alledge to love God so much that we hate our brother in our zeal. Brothers and sisters and whole legitimate Churches soon get set at naught simply because things dont 'measure up.'

Again, look at the churches of the new Testament. Five of seven did not measure up in Revelation. Corinth did not measure up. Lydia, a woman pastor was heading up one church. By the time we get through looking them all over we had not attended any but Philedelphia. Some may have thought they were to much on love, but they were the only one that passed the test. Ephesus failed on love and hated sin and falsehood. They about lost their anointing.

Just an intro...


God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/4 22:23Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Fruit and the wine press

Haven't gotten completely through all this yet but these two most recent were worthy of note.

Cindy, think you hit it on the head and hope that it could be said that it is [i]Truth[/i] we are all after, hard truth, ugly truth, beautiful truth. How that can get expressed is the difficulty often times in this medium as you well said.

Inflection. Indeed it has been duly noted, that we are all not Rhodes scholars about here nor do we have a bent toward those who might be better schooled. It is one of the more blessed things that happens, the brethren cutting across each others paths, some with loads of 'experience', perhaps longevity is a better word, some with little, without mowing people down in the wake. Nor do they care to. Pride is just such an ugly, ugly thing, no wonder it is a stench in Gods nostrils. But a lot of times it takes awhile to get a feel about the place and a feel for where each other are coming from, so there is patience with each other to a point. It can take the wrestling out loud awhile in the give and take to sort through things and hopefully we are all truly listening to each other and considering;

Phi 2:3 [i]Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.[/i]

Hopefully we will all be challenged to change our minds on occasion. And as long as no one is destroying the furniture... We have been blessed to have had relatively few problems around here, the only times that I can recall were either unruly house guests or that cockroach of the soul raising it's ugly head.

Think Robert really got at the heart of the matter here. The anger. Was just going over this again this morning;

Luk 9:54 [i]And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?[/i]

Luk 9:55 [i]But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, [b]Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of[/b].[/i]

Luk 9:56 [i]For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.[/i]

Indeed it's not 'Kumbya' all the time but neither is it without the sense of '[i][b]IF[/b][/i]....I can rebuke without a pang'


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Mike Balog

 2005/2/4 23:41Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Zeal

Robert your reply brought back to mind this excellent article from Leonard Ravenhill:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1600&forum=26&post_id=&refresh=Go]Zeal, Love Ablaze[/url]

Also can be read here;

[url=http://www.lastdaysministries.org/articles/zeal.html]http://www.lastdaysministries.org/articles/zeal.html[/url]

An excerpt:

[i]One day God grabbed me by the collar and showed me something: Judgment comes out of spiritual immaturity. Mature Christians will pray, discern, love, and counsel. If need be they’ll rebuke, but never in a critical, destructive spirit, and never publicly to shame and punish. That’s the godly way. Immature Christians can have a lot of zeal but little wisdom. They can put fire and noise into things that harm rather than help the cause of Christ. I fell into that trap and, like James and John, the Lord rebuked me for judging others.

You see, when we judge we step into the place of God. God alone is the judge of the motives of our hearts. If Jesus had wanted to call down fire on that Samaritan village, He could have done it Himself without the help of His disciples. These guys wanted to usurp Jesus’ authority, and so He had to set them straight.[/i]


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Mike Balog

 2005/2/4 23:51Profile





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