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Quote:
So I am not questioning, judging, or commenting on anyone's personal experience but my own. Hugs in Him.



...nor am I, so long as it is scriptural. If something ain't in scripture then it is, by definition, unscriptural. If it's unscriptural then I will raise a red flag. I'm [b]not[/b] saying that you had unscriptural experiences!! Please dont misunderstand. I cant make that judgement since you havent really descibed your experiences. All I am saying is that experiences are the last thing we should go on to determine if something is of God.

As far as Jimmy Swaggart is concerned... he does not fit the qualification of a church leader. I'm [b]not[/b] saying God does not reach people thru his ministry. But if God does reach people thru it, it is in spite of Swaggart and not because of him. I believe he is born again... I have no reason to doubt that he has repented of what he did back in the 1980's. However...

[b]1 Timothy 3:2-7[/b][i] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [b]Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without[/b]lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [/i]

Swaggart soiled his reputation by his sexual sin in front of the whole world. [i]Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without[/i]. He brought reproach on the name of Jesus Christ. He can (and I believe he has) be forgiven... but he cant be restored to a position of church leadership.

Am I judging him? No... I pray he is closer to God now more than he ever was. But when he steps into the pulpit... we are to judge all things by scripture. He is in a position that Paul forbids him to be in.

It's the same for all these pastors and church leaders who have been divorced... or have children who are out of control. We need to learn what the Bible says.

We're really off the topic here...

Krispy

 2005/2/3 14:16
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

Good points. There are biblical standards for leadership, to not go along with them is disobedience to God's Written word. Everyone has the opportunity for eternal life and be in fellowship, but not everyone can be the leader.

God does use disobedience to accomplish His purposes if He wants, He did for me, He also used Judas Iscariot to accomplish His purpose, but that doesn't mean the disobedient one He uses is getting a reward, they will probably be punished for their evils, Even though God uses disobedience for His purposes.


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Jina

 2005/2/3 14:20Profile









 Re:

... exactly. We tend to think that because someone is a motivating speaker, or a song brings a tear to our eyes... then the speaker must be "annointed". Not so. If we get goosebumps it must be the Holy Spirit. Not always.

 2005/2/3 14:28









 Re:

My, my, how did this go so sour? Let me ask you this, since you chose to got there. When was the last time you looked at your speedometer and noticed you were a mile or two over the speed limit. Is you "sin" any more acceptable to God. If you are looking for perfection in Tozer, Ravenhill, Wilkerson, or any of these, you wont' find it.
What Swaggart did was wrong. Nobody paid a bigger price than he did. Yet he did not give up, why should he. The entirety of the church world turned thumbs down on him. Yet he has persevered. Thank God.
Your criteria of "perfection" does not hold up biblically under grace, beloved. No body I know of today is preaching a purer message of the cross than he. FYI, I do not attend his church regularly. I need to do ministry, not spectate. So I am part of a much smaller church ministry.
You still won't find perfection in Jimmy. He'd be the first to admit it. But then, who will dare step up to the plate and claim that they are, bishop, evagelist, deacon, or you, or I? If not, better be careful about the measure you use to judge others. These things have a way of coming back on you.
Now, can we get back on track here? :)

 2005/2/3 17:13
StevenL
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 40


 Re:

At the behest of the Lord, we've been having prayer/praise meetings and Bible study at my home for over 10 years now. I don't know much about home church "movements" or anything...I just know what the Lord instructed us to do. It's been marvelous. It's amazing how much of the Word you can learn once you get the "church filter" off of it. I do miss the larger gatherings at times but not enough to have to go and endure the unscriptural nonsense that rules most "churches". God is doing marvelous things with His Body. The churches, in large part, do not accept what He is doing...as usual. But He will do it anyway without getting permission.

Oh..and I love brother Swaggart. But...he should have left the public ministry. He's not blameless anymore in the eyes of the outsider. He should not be an overseer. He does have a marvelous praise ministry though. I'm sure he has repented. Sin is such a tragedy..in any of us, whether publicly revealed or not. God bless brother Jimmy.


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Steve Lindsey

 2005/2/3 17:38Profile









 Re:

Hugs Steven, thanks for sharing. Thanks also for letting some mercy show through you. Brotherly Hugs.

 2005/2/3 18:25
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:
I'm not saying God does not reach people thru his ministry. But if God does reach people thru it, it is in spite of Swaggart and not because of him.



In love I would hope that this could be said of me someday, "that God reached people in spite of me, not because of me."


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/2/3 18:47Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

God doesn't recognize a house church or an institutional church, he simply recognizes the church.


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Jimmy H

 2005/2/3 21:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:
My, my, how did this go so sour?



Sour? I thought I was very gracious toward Swaggart. Re-read my post.

Quote:
Let me ask you this, since you chose to got there. When was the last time you looked at your speedometer and noticed you were a mile or two over the speed limit. Is you "sin" any more acceptable to God. If you are looking for perfection in Tozer, Ravenhill, Wilkerson, or any of these, you wont' find it.



There is a huge difference between speeding and sexual immorality. You're comparing apples to oranges. I'm not condemning Swaggart for his sin... merely pointing out what the Biblical criteria is for church leadership. Swaggart has repented, as far as I know, and therefore he is right with God. But he forfeited his right to leadership.

Quote:
What Swaggart did was wrong. Nobody paid a bigger price than he did. Yet he did not give up, why should he. The entirety of the church world turned thumbs down on him. Yet he has persevered. Thank God.



So I guess obedience to scripture takes a back seat?

Quote:
Your criteria of "perfection" does not hold up biblically under grace, beloved. No body I know of today is preaching a purer message of the cross than he.



Even Benny Hinn has [i]some[/i] truth in his teaching... that doesnt mean that he is not a heretic. (Not calling Swaggart a heretic, just making a point.) God's Word does not come back void, even if preached by someone who is in disobedience. I've know people who have succesfully led people the Lord who they themselves were living in wretched sin. Doesnt excuse their disobedience one iota.

Joyce Meyer is in direct disobedience to Pauls command that a woman not teach men... yet people do get saved thru her ministry. Not because of her disobedience... but because of God's Word. However, that does not mean that we should forget what the Bible says and condone her ministry. (Not to mention the fact that she is W.O.F. and that is a gross heretical doctrine... making her a heretic.)

By the way... when did I ever use the word "perfection" in anything I said? And I never once gave MY definition of ANYTHING. I quoted word for word from the BIBLE. If you dont like it, I'm not the one you should be offended at.

Quote:
better be careful about the measure you use to judge others. These things have a way of coming back on you.



I'm not judging Swaggart as to whether he is saved. However Paul exhorts us to weigh (judge) all things by scripture. And that is what I have done. I can read it clearly spelled out in Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus what the qualifications of church leadership are... and Swaggart does not meet it.

If we use your mentality and misunderstanding of judging in a Biblical way... then I suppose tomorrow if Michael Jackson decides to start a church you'll be all for it? I doubt you would be... and wouldnt you be judging?

There... now we can get back on track.

Krispy

 2005/2/4 7:37









 Re: If it be of God it will stand when it is no longer it will not

Through the ages I have personal watched as Home Churches, Home Bible studies, Navigators...etc I have watched them come, been involved, and watched them go. If it be of God to have it around then he will lead, you do as commanded and when it is no longer his will...it will fade. Do not try to recreate something that God does not command you to do just because it worked before and/or gave you warm fuzzies....to do so might not be in the will of God. Then you could be setting yourself up for the Devil to squeeze your heart and we know what kind of problems that would make.
Personally....take it to God in prayer and follow his direction....not your's, not mine, not our's....but God's alone. If there seems to be dryness in the spiritual parts of your life it might be God's way of purifing your heart for him alone to be seated there. Ephesians is the road map to a union with God....Madame Guyon's writings are a detail map of Ephesians that even John Wesley used to walk closer with God when his trip to the Americas failed so badly.
Home meetings and everything is good when directed...but always encourage everyone to attend their local churches to edify others and to pray for others.
If it be of God it will continue...when it is no longer for whatever reason....then it will fade. Your spiritual growth is more important to God than some meeting format. He loves you more than you will ever know until the day you are blessed to feel that bright light penatrates your entire being and you are walking up to see him (and hopefully you will not be brought back to life to be separated from it like I was.)
God is good and loving even if it does not seem so.
PJ

 2005/2/4 7:42





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