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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Questions and Discussions regarding the End Times


SimpleLiving,

I'm not trying to force this on you but I ran across this book this morning and thought about you. I did not know if you would be interested. The year interested me! I downloaded it (it's in the public domain) and will read it.

THE HOPE OF CHRIST'S SECOND COMING by SAMUEL TREGELLES of the Plymouth Brethren Movement in London; he rejected Darby's secret rapture theory in 1864!!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/74089858/THE-HOPE-OF-CHRIST-S-SECOND-COMING-SAMUEL-TREGELLES-1886-REPRINT-OF-THE-1864-EDITION

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2012/4/5 8:48Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
this is gone off already.



It also seems that I am an accomplice in this derailment. However, I would like to honour SimpleLiving’s desire that this not be a debate - and that’s not too likely with two irreconcilable view points. Still, the thread title leaves room for discussion – and there is a possibility for much fruitfulness. After all Revelation offers a blessing to those who read it. Why stop before we have tapped the blessing!


SimpleLiving, What about a different focus to your excellent and fine topic: end times. What about beginning with the seven churches, how in barely a generation, most of them were straying from Christ? This tendency to drift is evident throughout the church age – and still is. Revelation is surely relevant in reviving our church today.

We here know about the pre/post oppositional positions, but what about these oppositional positions regarding apocalyptic literature:

1) Get pre-occupied with the imageries. vs
2) Ignore the literature entirely because the imageries are too confusing.

What a tragedy! The value of Revelation gets lost to the church when these two options predominate. Two “boxes. Tick one!

How can we avoid either, and restore Revelation's blessing in a way that helps strengthen God’s people today?

What about taking this approach?

Diane



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Diane

 2012/4/5 9:15Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

As someone that used to believe in pre-wrath rapture, here is how I would have answered those questions.

1. Would not have prepared physically as God did not lead me in that way. Not to say that there are not endtime Joseph's that He is raising up. I was only led to prepare spiritually only and trust God. This belief has not changed. No matter what one believes this is our walk, anyway. Prepare spiritually by yielding to the Holy Spirit and abiding in Christ each day.

2. Scriptures say that we are not appointed unto wrath but we are certainly promised tribulation. So, I believed that God would rescue us from His wrath but not necessarily men's persecutions.

3. His plan is what His plan has always been for those that have gone through horrible persecutions and tribulations through the centuries. Abide in Him. Don't fear those that can kill the body but not the soul. Entrust yourself to Him.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/5 9:24Profile









 Re:

Only TIME will help alter our belief.

Lets say we are convinced that Jesus will come back in our lifetime. We've convinced thousands in our lifetime that Jesus would come back in our lifetime. We were very young when we started believing that and now we are very old and we are nearing that place where all men go. By this time we would have already begun rethinking about the stand that we had all our lives. We lived our course and now were dead and Christ had not yet come in what we had believed that He would. Now that we are dead, we'll be standing there before the thousands whom we lied to all our lives. Saved yes, but humiliated.

There are so many disappointed people, a great multitude of people that believed that Christ would come in their lifetime starting back in the day when all this seemed to have started in the 1800's. Before that time Christians were more concerned about the gospel, holy living, and being right with God than the "last days". Whenever bad things happen in the world, we automatically assume that Christ is coming. I think it's human nature to think that way. Whenever I see a disaster I see it as God going about His business judging a nation or blessing a people or nation. To me, it's just the daily workings of His power in the lives of men that He has been doing since the dawn of time.

Consider that famous city Pompeii. It was a metropolitan resort city. It was where the rich and famous dwelt. Kings and statesmen visited as a retreat. But then a black cloud came over the horizon, then ash that was thick and blinding, "some" people left, others just closed their doors and windows waiting for it to pass. Then the rumblings and finally the lava. A whole city was wiped out within a short period of time and if we were Christians living in that day and in that city, wouldn't we think that we were living in the last days? Be honest, picture yourself in that day being there, you would think that the Lord was coming back. Anyone in their right mind would. But things settled down, we'd moved to the next town or city and started life anew. When WWII was in the throes of war, when Europe was being almost completely controlled by an Anti-Christ nut, wouldn't you and I living in that day would have thought that Jesus was coming back at any moment? Don't kid yourself, we would have.

The "last days" to me is a like a Christian mystical machine that excites the imagination of believers as it would anyone wanting to know about the unknown. The interest is huge and even non Christians love it because anything that is unknown is exciting. Hollywood has put out movies based on some biblical hints, there is money in it. That is why the astrology, horoscopes and even the bible is big money. People use the bible like a horoscope, looking for their "word" for the day to see what kind of a day they will have.

The Rapture is not a delight to me. It's an unknown event wrapped up in confusing debates on where it's to be placed. People have argued over it, argued over the tribulation and I have known groups tearing their congregations apart because they didn't agree on their position, sounds silly don't it? I think it's very silly to bitterly depart from fellowshipping with others based on ones position on when the tribulation, wrath and the rapture is supposed to occur.

I will take the words of Paul and use them here,

"Are ye not carnal?"

 2012/4/5 10:47
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

As one who loves the book of Revelation and who believes the Christian will experience tribulation I do have ideas to your questions, but for lack of time [now] I will answer #3:

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"3. A) The Bible is our instruction book for life. There are teachings and instructions throughout the Bible for God's people. Yet, I don't see any in the book of Revelation. What is the belief of post-tribbers for why God doesn't lay out His plan (or instructions) for believers during the most difficult and horrific time in history?"
____________________________________________________________

Revelation speaks much of distress and calamity caused by the devil working to dethrone his arch-enemy, Jesus. The story is that Jesus is the victor. Jesus' children will get caught in this crossfire and become victims. The other point is that God will make life so hard for the ungodly because their security has been threatened or lost and will look to God for their redemption.

On the philosophical level: would you know there are people who believe they can through political means usher in the millennium? It cannot be done. Regardless where you come out on on the pre-trib, post-trib issue, life will be hard: you may get killed, so get ready for it.

Oh, and there are the letters to the churches - lots of practical advice there..read it, study it, internalize it and where do you come out at? The challenges, warnings, instructions is not only for a few local churches in existence then but for us today, as well. It also teaches one a lot about the nature of God/Jesus, his mercy, his wrath, his love...

This is the practical lesson, IMHO.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2012/4/5 11:33Profile









 Re:

Seems to me I heard somewhere that we are to LOVE HIS APPEARING. Not debate it. As for how Christ followers are to live during the tribulation, look to the persecuted in N. Korea or China or Eritrea. There you will will find your answer.

Caps were for emphasis only. No yelling.

 2012/4/5 11:58









 Re:

Dian said

Quote:
How can we avoid either, and restore Revelation's blessing in a way that helps strengthen God’s people today?

Diane I believe the only way that can be accomplished if we look at the book of Revelation the same way John was seeing it, in the Spirit.

Sadly, we are taking what was seen in the Spirit, was written down as he was seeing it in the Spirit and interpreting it through world events. We are taking the bible and using the world to answer those questions that itch in our brains and we have division. As soon as anyone of us sees what John sees and then tells the Church, we'll except it because our spirit will bear witness with His Spirit that what is being address is truly His Spirit. Those who will reject do not have His Spirit or too stubborn to receive it at the moment. So far, I have heard from mi-nute sources of interesting interpretation, everything is 99/44 100% pure confusion.

The scriptures was written for the Spiritual minded man, the carnal mind cannot understand anything that is contained in the scripture, he is not subject to it, and rightly so. But we who have the Spirit MUST see the book of Revelation as what it is, 'THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST'. The unveiling of His Person, His power, His Kingdom. What was done, what was going on at the time of John's writing and what will be.

 2012/4/5 12:06









 Re:

Quote:
Seems to me I heard somewhere that we are to LOVE HIS APPEARING.

For me, I see His appearing perhaps a bit differently then most. I see this as His appearing in us today. We are praying that Christ be formed in us that we long for revival do we not? This is the appearing that I love and long for. To wait for some future event that may or may never happen in my lifetime is like hoping to win the jackpot in the state lottery. But to hope for His appearing in us, for Him to stand up in the earth in His body is thrilling to say the least. I look to that appearing.

 2012/4/5 12:16









 Re:

Lisa - Thank you for the book.
Is there any way to download without signing up a membership on Facebook?
I haven't read it yet - but just have kept that page open and will just keep it open and read it as I can. I can keep it open and go on and offline - that's the only thing that I know to do.


Approved, I just wanted to say that we can't form our eschatology by Just reading the Revelation. One must start with the O.T. prophets, then the Gospels, then the Epistles and lastly the Revelation, for any of it to make a bit of sense.
Did you know that there's three times more prophecy about His Second coming than there was for His first advent?
If you read in the order that I gave - you'd see why it's so important to GOD that we have a handle on this topic.
He thinks it's extremely important, by giving these revelations, starting from His Old Testament Prophets in such detail that's it's absolutely Incredible, once you recognise the amount of detail He has given us and why.



GOD Bless!

 2012/4/5 13:24
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus-is-God
Lisa - Thank you for the book.
Is there any way to download without signing up a membership on Facebook?
I haven't read it yet - but just have kept that page open and will just keep it open and read it as I can. I can keep it open and go on and offline - that's the only thing that I know to do.


email me and I will mail it to you. I downloaded the pdf for my kindle.

I'm off to work now but I will get it to you after midnight!!

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2012/4/5 15:04Profile





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