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sfwc
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 14
England

 Re:

Quote:
This verse does not say 'if I am Christ's I have His Spirit', it says 'if I have His Spirit I am Christs'.



I must confess that, whilst I have not yet made up my mind on the key issue covered by this thread, I am a pedant and as such must point out the logical error in what you have said.

What Paul says is 'If I do not have His Spirit I am not Christ's.' This is logically equivalent to the statement 'If I am Christ's then I have His Spirit' and not the other way around.

You may not believe me about that, so I shall try to illustrate what I mean with the following discussion. We know that elephants are mammals. So the statement 'anything that is an elephant is a mammal' is true. Now this is logically equivalent to the statement 'anything that is not a mammal is not an elephant', which I am sure you would agree is also true. Note the change of order.

Now consider the statement 'anything that is not an elephant is not a mammal'. That is certainly not true! For example, you are not an elephant but you are a mammal. Similarly, the logically equivalent statement 'anything that is a mammal is an elephant' is false.

Quote:
The question to ask here is not; "am I Christ's, because if so I have His Spirit"
but
"do I have His Spirit, because if so I am His'



The question to ask is in fact "Do I have His Spirit, because if not I am not His". Note the totally different meaning.

I must apologise for labouring the point, but I hope it has become clear that what Paul said was the same as "If you are Christ's then you have His Spirit", and not the other way around. Note that this does not imply a causal link.

sfwc


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Nathan Bowler

 2005/2/2 9:16Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re:

Fellow pedant

I hope that I do not come of as offensive but, in my own opinion, there is an error in your parallel. Well the analogy you have drawn is conveniently manipulated to fit your precepts. The initial statement has as its protagonist, the Spirit and not Christ (I am by no means saying that this is the divine order, but it is the order in this particular verse). Your second statement has as its protagonist, Christ. Essentially these two statements are different.

What Paul says is 'If I do not have His Spirit I am not Christ's.' This is logically equivalent to the statement 'If I have his Spirit I am of Christ’.

I am weary however of “logical” discussions in spiritual matters. Let us remember that the above statement is not a definition, but it is an aspect of being of Christ. Just as when it says, “God is love” this is not a definition, if it were we could simply reverse the order (love is God) and the meaning would be unchanged. This is not the case. Reversals are only [i]completely[/i] true in absolute definitions and there are very few of those (if any) in the bible.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/2 9:44Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
I am weary however of “logical” discussions in spiritual matters.



Noted sir! And underlined, and bookmarked...
And a hearty amen! :-P


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Mike Balog

 2005/2/2 9:58Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am weary however of “logical” discussions in spiritual matters. Let us remember that the above statement is not a definition, but it is an aspect of being of Christ. Just as when it says, “God is love” this is not a definition, if it were we could simply reverse the order (love is God) and the meaning would be unchanged. This is not the case. Reversals are only completely true in absolute definitions and there are very few of those (if any) in the bible.


Me too. and this logic tutorial above is sound as far as I can see. However the phrase God is love, is non-negotiable term; it is absolute and will accept no tweaking. What about 'if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, [u]he[/u] is none of His'? The underlined word is an emphatic pronoun. This is a very clear way of drawing attention to the person in question. Is it the equivalent of saying 'if any person does not have the Spirit of Christ, that very man is not His'. What can this mean other than what it says?

I understand your strict logical thought flow here, but if we have a clear statement that
"x minus 'having the Spirit' does not equal Christ's". I hope this does not offend. I know God cannot be reduced to a formula, I am just trying to understand the logic behind your thoughts.

Now with that equation it is true that I cannot properly turn it into a positive statement and be logically watertight. It is logically possible, just in our reasoning, that it might still be true that someone might have the Spirit and still not be Christ's. (WHOA!!! I am not saying I believe that, just that it could be a possibility from the logic) It might be possible so to be safe I'll stick with the simple Biblical statement. [i]if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, [u]he[/u] is not His[/u]

How about a definition for 'His'? and, while we are here, a definition 'having the Spirit'?


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/2 10:46Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Baptism/infilling of spirit

Perhaps we should start be asking ourselves what are the objective facts concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In his first sermon, Peter said this, "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Acts 2:32-33)

This passage says that the basis on which the Spirit was shed forth was the exaltation of Jesus to the right hand of God. Jesus is glorified, therefore the Spirit is shed forth. Jesus died on the cross, I have forgiveness of sin. Jesus rose from the dead, I have new life. Jesus is exalted in heaven, I have the Spirit shed forth. All is because of Him.

We receive the forgiveness of sins by faith, and in the same way we receive the Holy Spirit. Is it possible that a child of God's sins are not forgiven by the blood of the Lamb? Therefore, is it possible that the Lamb has been glorified and God's child has not received the Holy Spirit?

Those are the objective facts. What we all want to know is how does that become subjective experience?

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/2/2 11:23Profile
wanderson
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Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 14


 Re:

Wow, in love I say, "Well said!". I was going to reply on the same vein but what you have said here is a vital biblical principle. Well done.


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Apostle William Thomas Anderson

 2005/2/2 11:25Profile
JKail
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Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 34


 Re:

In talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit I believe it is necessary to differentiate between being born of the Spirit of God (born again) and therefore "having the Spirit of Christ" indwelling us, and being baptized in the Spirit of God. Every true believer has the Holy Spirit inside of them "as a deposit gauanteeing what is to come" but not all are filled or baptized with the Spirit; there is definitely a difference.

For someone to say that we need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved is an error and for someone to say that we are automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are saved is also an error.

Jesus is a great example. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary and then later when he started his ministry he was endued with the power of the Holy Spirit, symbolyzing the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

I hope this helpes in this discussion

In Christ,
Jake Kail


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Jake Kail

 2005/2/2 11:37Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Definitions

Quote:
I understand your strict logical thought flow here, but if we have a clear statement that
"x minus 'having the Spirit' does not equal Christ's". I hope this does not offend. I know God cannot be reduced to a formula, I am just trying to understand the logic behind your thoughts.



Philologos

I see exactly what you are saying sir and perhaps you will find my next statement amusing but maybe before we proceed with definitions, a definition of a definition is in order. I am not just trying to stir up controversy and a meaningless play on words but I think that we cannot proceed if our very definition of a definition does not line up.

Let us take the example already given. An elephant is a mammal. The reason this is not an absolute definition is, a mammal is not necessarily an elephant. Perhaps one-step better would be, “an elephant is a 5 ton mammal with tusks and a trunk”. This is agreeable in that a 5-ton mammal with tusks and a trunk is in fact an elephant. This is indisputable but it is still not an absolute definition because it excludes elephants of a different weight (for not all elephants weigh 5-tons). We can see that the description is absolute but it is not absolute as a definition. God is love is an absolute description of God but it is not an absolute definition because it negate the other aspects of God. God does in fact hate some things and has no love for them, this does not fit our [i]definition[/i] of God, but it does fit our [i]description[/i]. I hope you see what I mean.

At school we were taught that the only absolute science is mathematics, then a step after that is physics, then chemistry, the biology, the geography. This is because the more complex a subject is the less absolute its definition is. Spiritual subjects are the most complex of all and to come up with definitions for them is quite erroneous (in my opinion).

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/2/2 11:46Profile
wanderson
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Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 14


 Re:

I must in good concience state at this point that what is said here may seem to be logical from your point of view but you have atempted to prove 3 biblical principles here by this one verse as proof but this verse does not give support for any of these 3...
1) Jesus died on the cross, I have forgiveness of sin
2) Jesus rose from the dead, I have new life
3) Jesus is exalted in heaven, I have the Spirit shed forth. All is because of Him.

I repeat that you cannot prove any of the three Godly and very spiritual priniples with this verse nor can you define your oringinal statement,
"Perhaps we should start be asking ourselves what are the objective facts concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit."
I am interested in hearing God's thoughts and your on this matter but this verse I feel is a poor support from the way you've interpreted it.

In Love.
William


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Apostle William Thomas Anderson

 2005/2/2 11:46Profile
wanderson
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Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 14


 Re:

Quote:

JKail wrote:
In talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit I believe it is necessary to differentiate between being born of the Spirit of God (born again) and therefore "having the Spirit of Christ" indwelling us, and being baptized in the Spirit of God. Every true believer has the Holy Spirit inside of them "as a deposit gauanteeing what is to come" but not all are filled or baptized with the Spirit; there is definitely a difference.

For someone to say that we need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved is an error and for someone to say that we are automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are saved is also an error.

Jesus is a great example. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary and then later when he started his ministry he was endued with the power of the Holy Spirit, symbolyzing the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Your thoughs are good for this dicussion, I would ask that you would use biblical reference to support your ideas to help us all understand what you are saying.

William


_________________
Apostle William Thomas Anderson

 2005/2/2 11:55Profile





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