SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : There Was No Pre-Tribulation Rapture! When is Jesus Coming Back?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

The history of the pre-trib rapture seems to start with Margaret MacDonald in 1830. Here is what I find. Is there anything documented before this?

1. Margaret MacDonald (1830) - personal prophecy in Glasgow
2. Edward Irving (1832) - Scottish charismatic preacher
3. John Nelson Darby - Irish lawyer and Plymouth Brethren leader
4. James H. Brookes - American Presbyterian preacher
5. Dwight L. Moody - Moody Bible Institute
6. C.I. Scofield - Scofield Bible
7. Dallas Theological Seminary (Chafer, Ironside, Ryrie, Walvoord)
8. Hal Lindsey - Late, Great Planet Earth
9. Popular interpretation of fundamentalist evangelicals

Pilgrim

 2012/4/2 20:21Profile
SimpleLiving
Member



Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

Lysa requested that this thread not be turned into a post and pre-trib debate so I won't get into that. I am not a debater anyway. I see no value in online debating because I've never seen one that was fruitful. Even if an online debate helps one person, it has the potential to confuse and repel many others. Each person is free to come to their own conclusion regarding this mystery of God.

However, when it comes to the tiring myth that Margaret MacDonald invented the rapture, it's not only false, but incredibly preposterous.

So, I am not debating/defending the pre-trib rapture. I am debunking the Margaret MacDonald inventing the rapture myth.

History shows that the rapture theory has been preached since 150 AD. Here's some of that history...

In 150 AD, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
In 270 AD, Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader preached it.
In 350 AD, Ephraim the Syrian
In 400 AD, Jerome in the Latin vulgate (in the Catholic Bible)

Then there were the 1,000 years of the dark ages, and then it came back.

In 1304 AD, Reverend Dolcino proclaimed the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1400 AD, Bible translations in the native tongues led to a new propagation of the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1627 AD, Joseph Mede
1627 AD Increase Mather
1687 AD, Peter Jurieu
1700 AD, John Asgill
1738 AD, Philip Doddridge
1748 AD, John Gill
1763 AD, James McKnight
1744 AD, Morgan Edwards
1792 AD, Thomas Scott
And then in 1830 AD, John Darby.

Belligerent post-tribbers (those who care only about being "right") waiver back and forth as to whom "invented the rapture" theory. (And, to be fair, there are just as many belligerent pre-tribbers.) Some say it was John Darby and some say it was Margaret MacDonald. Their research is very clearly one-sided as well as limited in history and limited to their own viewpoint.

The problem with that is that history is not the authority, the scriptures are. History only shows what happened, or, in this case, what and when the rapture theory was taught. What matters is only what scripture teaches. Many Christians lean different ways and I think that's okay. None of us knows for certain because, as I said, it's a mystery of God that He's not seen fit to clarify.



_________________
Keith

 2012/4/2 22:32Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hey there SimpleLiving,

Thanks for the info. I am neither pre nor post, and I don't call anyone belligerent. As the saying goes, "I have no horse in this race". But, I have always been interested in Church History. I do note your 15 references for the last 2,000 years and appreciate them. I came across this info and had not seen or even knew about yours. You gave general references so I will look for more specific info based on what you gave.

Thanks again,
Pilgrim



 2012/4/3 0:06Profile









 Re:

Live as if there will be a pre-trib rapture, but prepare for post-trip.

None of our opinions on it matter.

Krispy

 2012/4/3 5:25









 Re:

SimpleLiving... thank you for posting that. I agree with Pilgrim, I dont have a dog in this fight altho I used to be ardent pre-trib. Now I hope pre-trib is right (who wouldnt??), but I've come to the conclusion that my ever shrinking brain can not wrap itself around it completely, and I think there is evidence in scripture that may suggest otherwise.

So I dont know.

But I am grateful that you posted the information on the history of pre-trib teaching. I get severely annoyed when people suggest it began in 1830. It simply did not, and it is simple minded to suggest such a thing because 2 minutes of research dispells that myth.

The other thing the myth that this is a "new" teaching does is it subtly implies that a pre-trib rapture is on par with Mormonism in it's lack of truthfulness. Mormonism began around 1830 with Joseph Smith. Society and the church in the late 19th century HATED the Mormons, so it is not surprising that when someone wanted to discount a doctrine like "pre-trib" they would attempt to show some parallel similarities to Mormonism. It's called intellectual manipulation.

But unlike Mormonism, pre-trib thinking and teaching goes all the way back to the 2nd generation of the church itself. 150 AD...

So it is not something new.... but as it's been pointed out, it doesnt necessarily make it true. There is a long history of infant baptism as well and thats as false as the day is long.

Krispy

 2012/4/3 6:52
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

Quote:
Now, regarding the 45 day window that the creator of the video is talking about, I have to say that I agree with him. I believe there is a window of time for Christians during that time in history to expect Jesus to return in. (Just like they waited, expectantly, in the upper room in the book of Acts.)


Thank you for that honest assessment! I had not heard that 45 day window

To be honest, I used to be pre-trib and almost 20 yrs ago turned into a die-hard post-tribber (you'll find threads with me arguing in them for it!!)... UNTIL a couple of yrs ago the Lord showed me that there were many on both sides of the camp who are dead and buried who never saw their beliefs come to fruition; but sadly, both sides left behind them a wake of hurt feelings and argumentativeness. (Edit: Their legacy is not their love of Christ but of argumentativeness)

And I need to be careful because I find myself leaning toward post-trib more times than not (an example is my first post, I could have worded it differently so it wouldn't have introduced people to take sides),so I apologize for that.

Finally, I'm inclined to believe that both sides are right because both sides clearly have scriptures backing them up (just like the Calvinists and Arminians!) and we, mere human beings, can't see it because we like to pick a camp and die in it!! God have mercy on us so we can all get along!

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2012/4/3 8:13Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Amen, Krispy. Just be ready to be called home.

I find this all very confusing anyway for several reasons including the unspoken messages that this teaching and others presents to people.

Even within the premillennialist's camp there are varying opinions of the time of rapture.
1. Pre-tribulation rapture
2. Mid-tribulation rapture
3. Pre-wrath rapture
4. Post-tribulation rapture
5. Partial tribulation - faithful remnant of Christians removed at beginning of tribulation; others removed later

I never could figure out if it was a two-phase second-coming or not (that would imply a 3rd coming). I don't think there is an adequate basis for a two-phase Second Coming, as "caught up," "meet," descend" seem to be the same time period followed by final judgment.

In addition, I don't see an adequate basis in the Bible for imminency or a silent or secret coming where the Saints invisibly disappear. I thought the Lord returns with a shout and a trumpet. His return will be public and visible.

Having watched this debate for over 30 years I have also observed that it causes great divisiveness and intolerance with one another. Simple Living called people on both sides belligerent. He could have been right on. I would say that a spirit of arrogance and pride have definitely infiltrated all camps on this issue as each camp strives to be superior to the others.

The effects that I have witnessed are Christian's with escapist mentality who avoid and withdraw from society. They are disengaged from society and oftentimes develop a negative attitude towards society. The other danger and this happened in China as witnessed by Corrie Ten Boom is that the Church was unprepared for the coming persecution by Mao Tse Tung as the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching was exported to the church in China.

This was a good discussion and Corrie's testimony is on the first page. GinnyRose also brought out that Holland was taught about the Rapture (per Corrie).
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39810&forum=48&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=1

We just have to be careful about false teachers spreading teachings of false security. We can't stop them from doing that, but we don't have to listen to them. According to SimpleLiving, we now have 1800 years of this teaching of the pre-trib Rapture and a lot of tribulation has taken place since SimpleLiving says it was first recorded preached in 150 AD.

Let's not make the mistake the Thessalonians made.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

Jesus says to "Occupy till I come". Be engaged! Don't disengage and withdraw from society. I have seen this taught to children and they have no ambition or goals or visions. The fire has been snuffed out of them. They don't want to excel in any areas of their lives, or pursue any type of education. Their attitude is "what's the use, as soon as Iran invades Israel, we're outta here, anyway". Well, for the last 1,800 years this doctrine has supposedly been taught, many, many wars, persecution and tribulations later, it has not happened, yet.

Live for Jesus, live your life to the fullest and reject a "me versus them" mentality.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/3 8:46Profile









 Re:

Just ask Jack Van Impe... he's got it all figured out!

I remember when I first heard of him back around 1990. He was predicting (without setting a date, of course) that we were looking at possible 1995 or 1997 as the year the rapture would happen.

Apparently he was left behind.

Krispy

 2012/4/3 8:57
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Lysa,
I looked at the video and just as for the other posters, it didn’t change my views. Of course none of us approached it with a blank mind - but from our “presets”. But one “preset” we may overlook is our 20th century scientifically shaped way of thinking. We decode apocalyptic literature like Revelation through our own mental framework, with little awareness of a first century reader’s way of seeing it. But it is also prophetic material and so requires a spiritual outlook that comes through God’s Spirit – not our natural rationalities.

Apocalyptic language is obviously highly allegorical and figurative. Spiritual realties are painted with natural images and numerical symbols. It's not a linear time line like our scientific graphs.

I do not believe that the apocalyptic literature like Revelation was reserved for us clever modern people to decode. It was to be an encouragement for the early churches – that they may keep their eyes on Jesus Christ. And even in its futuristic outlook, it was surely not intended to leave out the entire first 2 millennia of the Church’s history – and somehow only apply to us (shortly).

Pilgrim pointed out that horrendous tribulations have afflicted God’s people over the centuries. I believe Revelation represents it all as one collective entity. And that is GREAT indeed! We can’t under estimate the intensity of ongoing suffering by pointing to something “worse”. We wouldn’t want to overlook our suffering brothers and sisters right now by becoming preoccupied with some imagined future time of suffering.

On an unrelated point: Jesus’s reference to Noah’s flood in Matt. 24 was mentioned. What intrigues me is that those taken away refer to the unbelievers who perished in the flood, and yet, as I have been taught, in the next verse the ones taken away are not the unbelievers, but the ones “raptured”. Strange twist, is it not?


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/4/3 9:16Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Oh my, Krispy, I have not heard that name in a while. And his wife - what's here name Druzilla, Rexilla? Something like that.

Thank you for this other manifestation of the Rapture doctrine. Date Setters!!

Have you seen the latest dates?

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm

By the way, Van Impe said that 2001 was the Beginning of the Millennium, not the end of the world, 1000yrs yet to go. Jack Van Impe; TV show: JVI Presents week of 1-15-1995l; Rather Vague but cites Jewish Catholic and Christians as well as Notradamus.

You know he is onto something when he cites Nostradamus.

2007 End of world; Implied in Hal Lindsay's revision. 1st said 1948+40=1988; Later Israel did not have land until 1967 War; 1967+40=2007; Rapture seven years earlier. Also now says generation from 60-80 yrs. Puts it also at 2040, 2047

2010 or 2012

"discontinuous event coming -- they peg it to the date 2010 or 2012" Scott Mandelker, who claims to have an ET soul; (from CNI News Vol. 3 No. 13, Part 2, an email newsletter)

2012

New Age writers cite Mayan and Aztec calendars which predict the end of the age on Dec 21, 2012.

2012:

Michael Drosnin, author of "The Bible Code," found a hidden message in the Pentateuch (the first five books in the Bible) that predicts that a comet will crash into the earth in 2012 and annihilate all life.

2012-DEC-22:

The Mayan calendar has many divisions of time: months of 20 days, years of 360 days, katun of 7200 days and a baktun of 144,000 days. Their calendar started on 3114-AUG-13 BCE with the birth of Venus. They expected the world to last for exactly 13 baktun cycles. They anticipated the end of the world near the Winter Solstice of 2012. (3)

2016

An article in Weekly World News describes a find by a Professor Lloyd Cunningdale of Salt Lake City who was excavating with his students at the site of the famous Donner party disaster of 1847. The latter were a group of settlers bound for California who became trapped by snow in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Cunningdale and students have found a time capsule left by the settlers which contains many predictions for the future. They predict that nations will abandon traditional methods of conflict and resort to the use of biological warfare. In 2016, one such disease will spread and kill all of the humans on the planet. (4)


I'll be glad when 2013 comes and this whole Mayan calendar turns out to be false. But then there will be something else.

Pilgrim

 2012/4/3 9:25Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy