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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Starting Over with a New Identity

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 Re:

I think the identity issue is a key issue and Jimmy has identified the importance of the issue. I know that there is so much confusion on the American side of the Atlantic. The red white and blue here seems to be the biggest challenge to many American Christians. I believe that when Christians here in America totaly identify with Christ and Him alone and that all of their identity comes from him, then we may see something of the revival that many would love to see. There seems to be a major connection with identity and dependence............ bro Frank

 2012/3/30 18:50
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Is it the New Testament's concept of life that we are to be annihilated as individuals so that Christ may instead occupy our space?



Some talk about it in such terms. But to me that idea smacks of the mysticism you mentioned earlier. And such an idea doesn't hold up well against the Scriptures theologically. Not to mention the idea is of no "practical" value whatsoever.

First, it is evident from a study of the Scriptures that the divinely inspired authors all had very different and unique writing styles. You would never confuse the writings of John with the writings of Jeremiah. Though 100% inspired, the writings of each man is greatly marked by the unique personality of each individual.

Secondly, such an idea takes away from the incarnation of Jesus Christ. When God became man, He truly became man. Jesus wasn't just some phantom. He was truly a man. Jesus in His humanity wasn't obliterated by His divinity.

Third, we are called to conform ourselves to the image and likeness of Christ. I don't know how to say this except to say that "you" become conformed to the image of Christ. You don't merely become plastic wrapping for Jesus.

Fourth, in the ages to come the prophets see the nations making their way to Jerusalem, and bringing "their fortunes" with them. This shows me a few things. One, nations are still uniquely nations in the ages to come. Everybody isn't simply a Jerusalemite. Secondly, it shows me that whatever they are bringing as tribute to Jerusalem is something that Jerusalem doesn't have. The tribute that is brought is the unique gifting and fortunes that make that nation that nation.

Fifth, even though there is no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave or free in Christ, and that all are one, the truth of the matter is, the fact they are now one in Christ doesn't obliterate their Jewishness, nor their Greekness. Men are still men. Women are still women. Slaves are still slaves. Freedmen are still free. And each has their unique function and contribution to make. And while Christ has made all these one, and have done away with all the dividing walls, it is still women who give birth. And it is still the Jews to whom the covenants were given. As is self-evident, their oneness didn't result in their distinctions being obliterated.


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Jimmy H

 2012/3/30 19:09Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I know that there is so much confusion on the American side of the Atlantic. The red white and blue here seems to be the biggest challenge to many American Christians.



No doubt. Art Katz used to say, "You are far too American!" And in saying that, it is amazing how in the name of being an American we will do some of the most ungodly things imaginable. What war have the churches not baptized in America? We are called to be a people of peace, and to extend the rule and reign of the Messiah, yet, the peace we establish is more like that which was called the Pax Romana.


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Jimmy H

 2012/3/30 19:12Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
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 Re:

Quote:
what Biblical word would you substitute for 'identity'?



Can this be encapsulated in one word without the risk of reduction? If identity is so all-encompassing, then surely we should be able to come up with several biblical words scattered through the pages – and add to that, examples of historical events, illustrations, parables, etc.

I already mentioned the prodigal son.



Diane


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Diane

 2012/3/30 19:27Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Is it the New Testament's concept of life that we are to be annihilated as individuals so that Christ may instead occupy our space?

Here is a verse that, to me at least, suggests otherwise.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Revelation 2:17



A wonderful promise! Yet I’m a bit nervous, if we must dig so deeply into scripture to tell us we exist for real. Actually I’m nervous about the emphasis on death to “self”– considering that Christ died that we may have Life – abundantly. I fear that there can be so much emphasis on self- annihilation that we risk losing any firm sense of identity at all. And that leaves God’s people easy prey for lesser identities. Maybe we truly were passive automatons of the devil (by submitting to all those humbugs) - but we sure aren't passive automatons of God.

I think God freed us to become truly human, truly alive, exuberantly creative, truly thinking beings, decision makers, truly FREE. We are free to say “No!” to those voices which try to reduce us into their control. We can’t do that without a strong sense of who we are, and who we are not.

Quote:
"We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."



And now we are free to say “Yes” to his calling on us.

I say all this because I have a sense that God’s people are significantly beset by passivity – due to a distorted sense of identity as believers. So then, “waiting” on the Spirit, for revival, for the rapture, or whatever, might actually be baptized expressions of passive resignation to a restrictive self-identity – and actually a failure to walk by faith in ones destiny (identity). In other words, it’s still bondage to sin's control - preferring to stay in the Sinai desert.

Does that make any sense?




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Diane

 2012/3/30 20:24Profile









 Re:

Many of us use that term, "die-to-self" but it's not the annilalation of our persona, but the giving over of the will to the leading of His Spirit within.
Jesus did, when in our form - as He said in different ways, 'the words that I speak and the works that I do are not mine but the Father's.' It's mere obedience. Giving up what our own autonomy.
As children we were taught how to cross the street, with "Stop - Look and Listen". I believe that is what Jesus demonstrated in His walk on earth, for us. Often He would stop and look up and make it obvious that He was speaking to the Father - and even the times that He didn't make it so obvious - He still spoke of His obedience, in all things, to His Father. Yes, and even when to eat or sleep and where - etc..

We're all as different as snowflakes and have our own persons in tact and the obedience that puts us under submission to the Holy Spirit is merely putting down of our own wills for His and that's what many term as "dying to self". It's a promise of Christ, that His Spirit would lead and guide and we'd Know His voice and follow ... not sure if that's considered "mystical" or not but seems like the Normal Christian life from the entire N.T..


GOD Bless!

 2012/3/30 20:44









 Re:

I think the identity issue is a key issue and Jimmy has identified the importance of the issue. I know that there is so much confusion on the American side of the Atlantic. The red white and blue here seems to be the biggest challenge to many American Christians. I believe that when Christians here in America totaly identify with Christ and Him alone and that all of their identity comes from him, then we may see something of the revival that many would love to see. There seems to be a major connection with identity and dependence............ bro Frank




Amen!

 2012/3/30 21:28
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Giving up what our own autonomy.


JIG, I’ve used these words myself quite frequently. Now, in view of this discussion, I’d have to say that “autonomy” in itself is an illusion. What one wants selfishly is really whatever one is in bondage to. For example you want the material symbols that give you the image you seek to portray to yourself and others. So you work hard and then you spend hard. This is not autonomy at all. It’s a bondage which feels like exhilarating autonomy.

So then death of “self” really means death of a false “self” along with all the trappings – the lie you live, or feel you must live. It’s actually the “old man”.

Jesus said: “The truth will set you free.” Christ, the truth, frees us to be true. We're talking about integrity here, aren't we?


Diane


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Diane

 2012/3/30 22:12Profile









 Re:

I see it going beyond reckoning the old man dead.
I see Him telling us to take up our cross and 'following' Him.
I see it as more than just dying to a false self.
I see it as living the life that He did.
It's more than just integrity. Integrity is merely our reasonable service of obedience to truth in the inward parts but "hating our life in this world", I see as that step beyond the cesstation of sins, such as greed, fascades, pride, and whatever else we could add to that list.
I see autonomy as something that He wants us to let go of, for His sake. That if we believe 'life' is ours to do with as we see best or fit - we're walking in the flesh and not the spirit that Jesus nor Paul walked in. We can't "walk in the spirit" and the flesh at the same time, but we do exercise our wills to 'will to do the will' of the Father.
I just believe that Jesus emptied Himself and walked the walk that He did for our example of total dependence upon the Father by His Spirit to live our lives in any way that He chooses. Not asking our'selves', "What am I in the mood for right now?"
I just don't see Jesus asking Himself that - nor Paul, nor John, etc..
Life is so very short and only what's done in and by His Spirit will last - and also so that no flesh will glory in His presence - though being a living sacrifice.

The Truth does set us free from those things that have no bearing upon or are seen again, once we're in Eternity.


Blessings!

Ann

 2012/3/30 22:35
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

For example you want the material symbols that give you the image you seek to portray to yourself and others. So you work hard and then you spend hard. This is not autonomy at all. It’s a bondage which feels like exhilarating autonomy.



"Keeping up appearances..." is a phrase that comes to mind. Consider doctors and lawyers. They are expected to live a certain lifestyle. Not only by family and friends, but to be respected in their profession, they have to keep up a certain lifestyle for their peers. You have to "play the part" as some say. Lawyers have to act lawyer-ly. Indeed. This is slavery.


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Jimmy H

 2012/3/30 22:39Profile





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