| Fighting/Weeping in the NT|
I'm possibly posting this is the wrong area, so apologies.
I've watched a few videos of sermons on youtube about men being men of God, but am a little confused - hopefully some could provide a solid biblical answer.
Some preachers I've listened to will say to fight those who opppose, even physically. One leader says to beat the down. I feel in my spirit that is wrong, but want to submit that to scripture.
Also, some others say it's the fight to pray, to win the souls of man - that is our fight in the new testament times and our age of the Church.
Which is the correct viewpoint - I'm not a violent man, and would oppose demonstrating any physical force, except maybe to defend my wife/family/others being persecuted or attacked.
The very same leader has never taught that we should weep for the lost - this is something I find quite odd. He's almost stoical in that area, that there is a lack of remorse for sin, or for the lost, or even for those falling away.
Could anyone help with scriptural basis for what men are to fight (and how) and also whether we are to weep as men?
Personally, I find it shocking that men hide behind a mask of machismo that has infiltrated from the world. I always remember Carter Conlon breaking down at the pulpit after preaching 'Run!', Paul Washer just weeping about the state of evangelism, Ravenhill's voice almost on the edge of tears when talking of the state of the church. These are more men of God than the ones who would hide it all behind the 'Be a man, be strong, be firm, I can stand tall through this.'
I pray for the lost, my relatives and find myself falling in tears. Please help me understand this from scripture...
| 2012/3/28 14:26||Profile|
| Re: Fighting/Weeping in the NT|
Mind telling us who you are exactly referring to so we can take a listen and understand what you are saying?
| 2012/3/28 15:08||Profile|
| Re: |
I was gonna ask the same thing. I've not heard talk quite like that, with the exception of a few hardcore backwoods fundamentalists around here where I live... but I doubt most of those guys have ever heard of YouTube... or even the inner-nat.
| 2012/3/28 15:37|
| Re: Fighting/Weeping in the NT|
James 4 tells to weep and lament over our sin in our heart.
Philippians 3:18 Paul speaks of his weeping concerning the enemies of the cross.
Really, the first scripture to come to mind is about Jesus himself weeping- and I'd say he is the best example of a man any could have.
He wept on more than one occasion.
Here is one:
Luke 19:41 But as he (Jesus) came closer to Jerusalem and saw the city ahead, he began to weep. 42 How I wish today that you of all people would understand the way to peace. But now it is too late, and peace is hidden from your eyes."
immediately afterward, it is recorded that he went into the temple and overturned the money tables.
and Isaiah 53: He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
These few verses depict a humble and gentle Jesus who knew that the enemy could do nothing to him unless the Father allowed it. His submission to the Father was the great weapon against evil.
Ephesians 6:11-13 "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
2 Corinthians 10: Now I, Paul, make a personal appeal to you by the gentleness and graciousness of ChristI who am humble among you in person but bold toward you when absent. 2 I beg you that when I am present I will not need to be bold with the confidence by which I plan to challenge certain people who think we are behaving in an unspiritual way. For though we live in the body, we do not wage war in an unspiritual way, 4 since the weapons of our warfare are not worldly, but are powerful through God for the demolition of strongholds. We demolish arguments 5 and every high-minded thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, taking every thought captive to obey Christ.
| 2012/3/28 16:06||Profile|
| Re: |
In response to the first replies, I don't really want to mention the preacher - this is more of feeling challenged by their attitude toward manliness.
I don't know them personally, and would rather allow God to challenge them on issues (which I hear is happening anyway) and not produce and slanderous talk toward a brother in Christ.
Thank you, onemite, for your response with these scriptures, I will look into these verses in more depth.
I really liked your point: 'His submission to the Father was the great weapon against evil.'
I constantly see people saying 'a call to battle', often with imagery of actual warfare. Some people like to take this very literally, marching round buildings like the OT example of Jericho, etc. I have grown unsure of using this literally, something many Christians seem to like to do. To me it seems we are doing something as a show of strength rather than the contrasting show of submission and love and fervent battle in prayer...
Since God renewed my heart, I have wept for the Church, for people around me who are lost. It seems the way I understand that God has broken my cold, indifferent attitude. I have repented, wept over my sin of ignorance, and much more besides, to only find most men practising the 'alpha male' type role, stoic and hard and strong. This causes me concern, as I feel this is unbiblical. Whether I am right or wrong is something I need to look at from the point of the truth of the Word, not my own intuition.
Again, I will consider the verses as a good starting point for further study. I feel God is leading me to look at this in greater detail, hence asking the question. Many thanks again.
| 2012/3/29 4:47||Profile|
| Re: |
I think I understand what you are saying. There are some Christian men who are taking the whole "manliness" thing to place where it shouldnt go. Their idea of manliness is based more on Hollywood than the Bible. While Braveheart was a great movie... the Bible calls men to be something a little different.
Should we be solid? Yes. Should we stand our ground and defend the innocent? Yes. If you break into my house and my family is home... it may well be the last thing you do on this earth.
But godly manliness is about serving others, taking care of widows and orphans. It;s about crying with those who mourne and rejoicing with those who rejoice.
Do we take a strong stand agaisnt those who teach another Christ? Absolutely, but never are we to physically attack them. You never see Paul endorsing that, and no one went after false teachers like Paul did.
I think a lot of this is an over reaction to the fact that for decades women have ruled the church house while the men did nothing... and so the church is femanized. I want to see that change as well! Believe me! But becoming Rambo or Braveheart and just generally becoming obnoxious is not what God has called men to be.
He's called us to be wise, loving, strong, intelligent, able to hold our tongues and given to self control.
I'm getting there... slowly.
| 2012/3/29 5:50|
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An exact response - well said. Many men around me seem to leave out the mourning, the emotional responses, probably pandering to much that Hollywood seems to portray manliness.
As such, I've removed that from my life, many action films and similar are cut off from me now. I feel that is a massive first step that God can now work on me without the emphasis of the world's view of manliness. Many men around me still like to watch the action hero saving the day, little realising that submission to Christ is what is essential.
When I used to watch these things, people who make selfless sacrifices (like jumping on the grenade) are the real men.
Like you said, I'm getting there too, slowly, by the grace of God.
| 2012/3/29 8:06||Profile|
| Re: |
Here is something I have noticed, richrock, and perhaps you have too... the more Christian men want to adopt the "Rambo" personna I have observed that their language has downgraded to courseness and crudeness... and even lower: profanity.
We've noticed this particularly in the realm of Christian athletics, which we are involved in since we have 4 boys. "Christian" coaches who see nothing wrong with course joking and yelling profanities at referees and players.
And the attitude is: We're trying to make men out of them.
Hey, chew my kids face off it that will motivate him, but do NOT use profanity or course language around him! Thats not the kind of men my wife and I are raising.
| 2012/3/29 8:25|
| Re: Fighting/Weeping in the NT|
My brother in law tells a funny story about a time his high school football team was losing their local title game. Late in the game, when nothing was going well at all for them, the captain comes back to the huddle in tears, yelling at everyone, "Somebody do something!"
There is much frustration and anger today because all of our social structures and cultural frameworks are tottering. And the situation for the visible church doesn't look too promising in the last quarter. This tenseness is expressed by impotent leaders yelling at the rest of the saints "Somebody do something."
One Sunday, January 25, 1736, on a ship caught in a life-threatening storm, John Wesley made this journal entry.
"At seven I went to the Germans. I had long before observed the great seriousness of their behaviour. Of their humility they had given a continual proof, by performing those servile offices for the other passengers, which none of the English would undertake; for which they desired, and would receive no pay, saying, it was good for their proud hearts, and their loving Saviour had done more for them. And every day had given them occasion of showing a meekness which no injury could move. If they were pushed, struck, or thrown down, they rose again and went away; but no complaint was found in their mouth.
There was now an opportunity of trying whether they were delivered from the Spirit of fear, as well as from that of pride, anger, and revenge. In the midst of the psalm wherewith their service began, the sea broke over, split the main-sail in pieces, covered the ship, and poured in between the decks, as if the great deep had already swallowed us up. A terrible screaming began among the English. The Germans calmly sung on. I asked one of them afterwards, Was you not afraid? He answered, I thank God, no. I asked, But were not your women and children afraid? He replied, mildly, No; our women and children are not afraid to die.
From them I went to their crying, trembling neighbours, and pointed out to them the difference in the hour of trial, between him that feareth God, and him that feareth him not. At twelve the wind fell. This was the most glorious day which I have hitherto seen."
American masculinity is not going to be the rescue of the North American church. Poverty of spirit and patient discipline that daily practices the presence of Christ, who is sufficient, will carry us and our families through the tumult.
"Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city." Proverbs 16:32
| 2012/3/29 9:43||Profile|
| Re: |
Good stuff!! I'm going to use it!
| 2012/3/29 10:41|