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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : How can I die with Christ, when I'm dead in sin? (as a non-Christian)

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DezCall
Member



Joined: 2004/7/9
Posts: 315
The Netherlands

 How can I die with Christ, when I'm dead in sin? (as a non-Christian)

Hello all,

I’ve got a question. The Bible tells that I was “dead in sin” (Ephesians 2:1,5), but that I, on the other hand, needed to die with Christ (Romans 6). How is it possible to die with Christ, when I’m already dead (as a non-Christian)? Are different events being described?

In Colossians 2 it looks like that and I would appreciate, if some of you (or all :-P) could give some clearness about it:

“In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [b]Buried with him in baptism[/b], wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” (:11-12)

It says that we are “buried with Him”. So…I was alive, but died and was buried with him, after which, through faith, God raised me from the dead. When I read this, this clearly describes “conversion”. To die to sin and my nature, who I was and what I used to do…receiving forgiveness (Ephesians 1:13) and being raised with Christ to new life (Born by water – repentance – and Spirit – God -)

But the other verse seems to speak of something else:

“And you, [b]being dead in your sins[/b] and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (:13)

Here it says that I was dead. Are verses 11 and 12 a zoom in of what had to take place, before I could see, enter and understand the Kingdom of God? Does verse 13 describe my state and verses 11 and 12 the process how, by Gods grace, I came out of that state (through faith in Jesus Christ)? Does Ephesians 2:1,5 describe my state and Romans 6:3-4 the process how, through Jesus alone, I came out of it?

Well…could use some help here..

In Christ,
Paul


_________________
Paul

 2005/2/1 6:08Profile
wanderson
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 14


 Re: How can I die with Christ, when I'm dead in sin? (as a non-Christian)

A question to start. Have you been baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit and Fire? By this we can know you are His(Romans 8:9) and capible of understanding spiritual truths, for truly what you intellectualy play/wrestle with is and are thoughts from the mind of Christ and can only be understood by the Spirit of Christ. If so what is the evidence of your filling?


_________________
Apostle William Thomas Anderson

 2005/2/1 7:05Profile









 Re: Wanderson...

You wrote:

If so what is the evidence of your filling?

Please don't go there, start another thread. And as I understand it, you are saying that unless one has been "baptized in the Holy Spirit and with fire", they are not saved. Again, start another thread, please.
I do respect your right to comment, but I'm not at all comfortable with your post in this thread. I understand it and have heard it all before. I know where you're going and I disagree. If you want to discuss it, simply qualify your desire by opening another thread and spitting it out. Thanks.

 2005/2/1 13:08









 Re:

Quote:
Please don't go there, start another thread. And as I understand it, you are saying that unless one has been "baptized in the Holy Spirit and with fire", they are not saved. Again, start another thread, please.



Amen... thank you!

To actually address the question that was asked... My answer would be that when we were in sin we had no eternal life. We were "as good as dead". I think thats another way to put it. We had no future, no hope.

Once you accept Christ He gives you eternal life. However, as long as we are alive on this earth we need to continually "die to sin", treat sin as if we were totally dead to it. We dont die to Christ like He died for us. He was the sacrifice once and for all. But we die with Him in the sense that we die to the world.

For instance... in some families where the relationships are strained, a father may say to a child "You're dead to me!" I pray no one here has experienced that. Anwyay... is that child dead? No. But the father will treat the child as if they were. In other words... have nothing to do with it.

These scriptures are not literal. It is a way of getting the point across. We understand that when someone is dead they cannot react to the environment around them. When we die with Christ, we no longer react to the envirnment around us. We do... but we're to depend on Christ to help us not to. And if we do react to our environment (sin) we still are dead to it because it can no longer effect us in an eternal sense. (It can effect our life here, but if we are saved we have security in Christ...)

Does that make any sense?

It has nothing to do with baptism by fire... and yadda yadda yadda... dont pay any attention to that. You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong. There are those who seek "signs and wonders", but the Bible warns that many will come in the last days with signs and wonders and deceiving many.

Stick to the Bible!

Hope that helped,
Krispy

 2005/2/1 14:04
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

There are lots of resources that deal with this topic here on Sermonindex. One of my favorites is a 4 part series on [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=137]Justification, Repentance, Regeneration, & Adoption.[/url] You are also welcome to follow along in the series titled "The dispensation of the Gospel" in the Revival and Praying section of the forum. There is a lot of resources blended together in it from Finney and others, even a hint of Philologos ;-).

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/1 14:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: How can I die with Christ, when I'm dead in sin? (as a non-Christian)

Dezcal
You might like to take a look at Next Door to Heaven: Death with a posting date of 2004/5/24 15:57


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Ron Bailey

 2005/2/1 14:30Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong.


I just thought I ought to put up my hand at this point! :-(


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/2/1 14:32Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong.


I just thought I ought to put up my hand at this point! :-(



I'm with Ron on this one. In case we want to elaborate on this topic, however, it would probably be better if we started a new thread in fairness to Dezcall's original question so that it too may be fleshed out so to speak.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/2/1 14:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I'm with Ron on this one. In case we want to elaborate on this topic, however, it would probably be better if we started a new thread in fairness to Dezcall's original question so that it too may be fleshed out so to speak.



I'm game...

 2005/2/1 16:19
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
philologos wrote:
Quote:
You received Holy Spirit baptism when you were saved. Without it you couldnt be saved. There are those who dont believe that, and they are wrong.

I just thought I ought to put up my hand at this point!


I'm with Ron on this one. In case we want to elaborate on this topic, however, it would probably be better if we started a new thread in fairness to Dezcall's original question so that it too may be fleshed out so to speak.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey

I'm Game...




Count me in.

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/2/1 16:32Profile





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