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jdlashley
Member



Joined: 2012/1/5
Posts: 35
South Carolina

 Pearls before swine and apologetics.

I know I have been here for only a short time, and it seems I am starting a new thread constantly. But, I am in the middle of reading "The Cost of Discipleship" by Bonhoeffer. I have run across a reference to Matthew 7:6, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.", and it got me to thinking.

In light of this verse, what is the implication on apologetics?

I can attest to seeing some forums and watching debates in which I have questioned, "Is this really being productive?". "Is the debater truly trying to lead his opponent to the truth or is he trying to win an argument and prove his point?"

Now, I will be honest and say that I have not given this verse much thought. I have also engaged in apologetics with unbelievers and have found that even if you have an answer for whatever objection they may produce, most will still remain indifferent or even hostile to the faith. At times such as these, I have chalked it up to having either sowed or watered, with the Holy Spirit working later on down the road.

Any thoughts?...


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James D. Lashley

 2012/3/26 20:30Profile









 Re: Pearls before swine and apologetics.

Hi James, I am with you on this one. I have never found apologetics to be very helpful in leading someone to Christ. I am sure there have been some. I think this is because mans main objection to God and His plan of salvation does not lie in his head but in his rebelious spirit. He wants to be the master of his own domain, he does not want to bow the knee to God, he does not want to be accountable to a Holy God because he likes his sin and he likes to do it in the darkness of the world and does not want to approach the light. As in every subject, there are always exceptions, but at least in my experience, the objections are not intellectul. When you add that to what Romans 1 says about " all men," suppresing the truth, then we see that all men know the truth but " push it down."...........bro Frank

 2012/3/26 21:06
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: Pearls before swine and apologetics.

James,

This is an issue I often think about - that of casting your pearls before swine.

It helps me a lot when I visualize what hogs would do with pearls. They love to root, wallow in mud, have only one goal and that is to be the first one at the feed trough and get the most before any other hog and if one gets in the way, will snarl, push him out of his way. They are not courteous, nor polite to each other - it is not even on their radar. They have only one goal and that is to please themselves with no regard for any other hog except their piglets if it is a sow. Knowing well the behaviors of hogs, I know what they would think of pearls: have no respect, honor, no concept of their history or importance. If you can't eat it it is only good to stomp in the mud! (Yes, I grew up on a hog farm.)

Knowing full well the behaviors, the characteristics of hogs I am aware of people who have the same regard for holy things and would treat them just like a hog would pearls. Any incidents that the LORD has given you that is sacred to you, will be mocked by an ungodly person. So, then the point of this verse is that it is useless to share these precious gems with a person who has no regard for the sacred or the holy.

As one converses with a profane person, you will in your spirit quickly be able to discern the limitations of your testimony because he is like a a hog that will mock and scorn you. So, then, do not share what is holy and precious to you.

I have seen comments on the web of people that did share the sacred with profane persons and I cringe every time the mocking that follows.

My thoughts...

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2012/3/26 22:32Profile
RogerB
Member



Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 267
Bruceton TN

 Re: Pearls before swine

since we are part of the kingdom of God, we should say,
"My Father doesn't cast his pearls before swine and neither should I".


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James R Barnes

 2012/3/26 22:47Profile
onemite
Member



Joined: 2011/9/19
Posts: 168


 Re:

Ginnyrose,
I think you gave a beautiful illustration!
We probably all have had at least one experience with trying to convey something so precious as something of the Spirit- something the Lord has intimately revealed to us, to have it received with flippancy or contempt. This is what I apply that verse to, although I know that James is speaking about apologetics.
Apologetics are meant to speak to the intellect, which is useful because it may renew the mind and can sink down into the heart and have its way provided the individual allow it, but ultimately it's the word of God that does it's work, not the the argument. The Lord has to be drawing a man for him to hear, and I mean hear the word of God. Some people cannot fully understand or digest some apologetics but are by no means excluded from the things of God!
I agree that sometimes we just have to know that God will use what we've said to either plant a seed or water it.

 2012/3/26 23:29Profile









 Re: Pearls before swine and apologetics.

Good book you're reading, Brother James.

The animal called a chameleon has a fish that is like it, in that it can change colors in order to hunt other fish.
This is what kept coming to mind when I saw your thread question.
A "dog or a swine" is what they are - but chameleons and this fish that changes colors that came to my mind is what made me go read the chpt that you were quoting from.

I remembered that this "casting pearls" verse came directly after the "motes and beams" verses but now looking I see that the verses about asking The Father for anything, and He won't give us a stone for the bread we ask for, come directly after the swine verse.
In Luke, this same analogy about 'asking' is used for asking for the Holy Spirit and also cross-referenced to James, as when we "ask for wisdom".

The puzzle pieces came together there for me about why I kept getting this word 'chameleon' in my head. First we have to be sure within our hearts before GOD that we're not judging [Matt 7:1-5] and also, we have to be sure to get the log out of our own eye before we try to remove the splinter from another's eye. Then in 6 we have your verse about dogs and swine - but next we have the verses about "asking GOD for whatever".

I don't think that's just a random order that those first 11 verses are in.
Seems to me - that if we want to be careful in whom we judge, so as to not judge unfairly - then we're told to judge whether someone's a dog or swine - then we surely do need the Holy Spirit to give us wisdom to determine that is indeed what we're dealing with.

Mercy triumphs over judgment as well - so we do need to be certain before we walk away and cast the dust off of our feet.

Chameleons and those fish that change colors to catch and eat other fish surely do need more than just human-wisdom to discern.

GOD Bless!



{eta} - sorry I didn't finish there - a chameleon or that crafty fish, would be a "wolf in sheep's clothing" in 'Biblical' talk.

 2012/3/27 1:28









 Re:

Quote:
I have also engaged in apologetics with unbelievers and have found that even if you have an answer for whatever objection they may produce, most will still remain indifferent or even hostile to the faith. At times such as these, I have chalked it up to having either sowed or watered, with the Holy Spirit working later on down the road.



Martin Lloyd-Jones in his books "Preachers and Preaching" recommends that we never use apologetics to present the gospel to unbelievers. There are several reasons he says this, but the point that stood out most to me was that apologetics in and of itself tends to lead to debates. We do not want to debate with an unbeliever because the Holy Spirit draws a man to Christ, not our arguments. If we get into a debate with an unbeliever in order to bring him to Christ then we enter into the realm of US drawing them... and not letting the Holy Spirit draw them.

He recommends we simply present the gospel and let the Word of God stand on it's own. God has promised His Word will not return void... but He made no such promise about our words and our debates and our apologetics.

Truth is truth and it stands on it's own. You dont see Paul using apologetics. Sure, he used examples from whatever culture he was preaching in, but he would very quickly point to Jesus and the cross. No apologetics, no debating, nothing but the truth of who Christ is.

Krispy

 2012/3/27 5:59
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 453
Michigan

 Re:

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God...

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor. 2


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Wayne Kraus

 2012/3/27 6:51Profile









 Re:

I want to be clear that I was not in any way saying that apologetics is wrong. To the contrary, apologetics is very important. It can be a great source of encouragement for believers. But I think we should stay away from debating apologetics with unregenerate people. We need to point them to the cross.

Krispy

 2012/3/27 7:38
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

QUOTE:
"Apologetics are meant to speak to the intellect, which is useful because it may renew the mind and can sink down into the heart and have its way provided the individual allow it, but ultimately it's the word of God that does it's work, not the the argument."

True.

Ravi Zacharias has a ministry using apologetics to the intellectual Indian. As an observer looking on, listening, I find much inspiration in his speeches. There is no other radio preacher that has influenced me as much as Ravi has and therein lies a problem - I tend to put him on a pedestal but God will sure work to break it if I persist. He also needs a Savior and is dependent on Him for everyday life.

God bless.


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Sandra Miller

 2012/3/27 9:50Profile





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