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dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

This question boils down to the nature of the new covenant.

Is Christianity a patch that has been sewn onto the old mosaic garment? Or is Christianity something entirely new?

If we go with a "patch work approach," we can say that Jesus abolished only the ceremonial portion of the Mosaic law - not giving us a new covenant, but just a new spin on the old covenant (by way of restating the law to include only a moral component. That more or less works - since the new covenant is a moral covenant - this near approximation works - at least until you have to deal with such things as tithing. Some preachers consider the tithe to be part of the 'moral' law - others do not. Frankly, under this system, we are all free to define how much of the Mosaic law was ceremonial, and how much was Moral - since scripture doesn't say one way or the other. Apparently our own subjective opinion in the matter is sufficient.. 8-)

If on the other hand we say that Christ has abolished the mosaic coevenant entirely, replacing it with an entirely new new covenant - then we cannot make an argument for the tithe - since all our offerings are just that - free will offerings.

Under the Mosaic system, a man became condemned by breaking the Mosaic law and failing to have his sins forgiven through sacrifice.

Under the new covenant a man is not condemned by the law - but is condemned as described in John 3:18-21:

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Hebrews 8:13 tells explains that the mosaic covenant became obsolete as soon as the new covenant was established: 'In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete...'

If all the laws of Canada were invalidated, and new laws were invoked - I couldn't be charged under the old system any more. Even if I was breaking what had previously been a law - if it is not a law under the new system, I am not a transgressor.

The only way the tithe can be taught, is to teach that the mosaic covenant is still partially in effect - that the new covenant is just another patch on the old.

Dan


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/2/28 15:21Profile









 Re: My 2 cents

This has always been a doctrine that I have never been comfortable with. I do not think we are bound to the old covenant. I do think that love and commandment for ministry to the poor demands we should be involved financially in the work of God. We just need discernment for what is His work, and what is not.

Giving to the poor is old and new testament, especially in the kingdom of God. We have folks within the "BODY" that are often hurting and even hungry. They have many other needs as well (see Matthew 25:31-46). One real problem is that we too readily give of our money, but don't touch our time.

Spreading the Gospel takes an investment or offering if you will of our time. The bible is again very clear as to whom we should offer it too.

I heard of a church in Florida that gave 85% of their income to missions. The 15% they kept was plenty to provide for all their local activities and ministries. They didn't start out that way. They first gave 10%. Then they wondered what would happen if they gave 15%. They just kept increasing the giving,and the Lord kept increasing the income. When they got to 85%, the Lord told them that was enough. They never ran short. \o/

I think we should be careful that where we "offer" money, it should be for the building of God's kingdom, and not man's. That's not to say that your ministers should not be supported. It's just that most should not be supported in the ministry they provide. Think about it, it will come too you. ;-)

Fianlly, someone here has in their signature I think, the following: "It's not how much you give to God, it's how much you have left in your heart". I like that....a lot. I think God does too.

Shalom in Christ Jesus,

Lahry

 2005/4/17 21:51









 Re: My 10 cents

Everytime I tithed, I got in trouble with the LORD. When I gave, I was blessed.

I tried to set up some tithing system, and everytime It wouldn't work out. When I'd give out of my hearts desire to help someone I was blessed. Tithing always bound me up, grace released me.

Karl

 2005/4/17 22:06
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Do you feel that giving in the form of a tithe made you feel bound.. or that titheing made you think of things legalisticly and that is what bound you.. the legalistic part? I'm not 100% sure how I feel on the topic. But what I do belive is that we cannot have a legalistic mind as in I must give X% or do this certain thing. I belive its the heart really. *edit* Obeidience with a pure heart is what we need. *edit* You can call it a tithe or offering but if you are not giving it with a pure heart then you are just fulfilling some religious duty. Some have gave their 2 cents.. some 10 cents.. haha here is my 1 cent! :)


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/4/17 22:16Profile









 Re:

Anytime we start to debate over which OT Laws we are to keep and which ones we aren't we loose sight of the what Jesus really taught. All the commandments are summed up in loving God and loving our neighbor! If we love God we will want to give to express our praise to Him for His faithfulness. If we love our neighbor we will want to give so that the Gospel can go forth! Our hearts must desire to please and honor God. Those who are opposed to tithing often say we are to give MORE than 1O percent. I would say both camps agree on one thing then, we are called to give! Let's give MORE rather than less! Paul's main concern was that we give with a cheerful heart!

[b]Proverbs 3:9-1O says, Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the first fruits of all thine increase. [/b]

[b]Matthew 23:23 says, Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weighter matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith; [u][color=990033]these ought ye have done, and not to leave the other undone! [/color][/u][/b]

You can never out give God!

 2005/4/17 22:22
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Price of currency

Whatever the going rate of a shekel is these days...

Interesting that this has come up again. Earlier caught the tail end of J. Vernon McGee's take on this (No, he didn't by it).

Had a thought on this elsewhere,

[i]Faith without works is dead and so is work without faith, work without life in it, work for merit and 'pay', work for all the wrong reasons. Something edgewise here if I can sneak it in... One of the reasons I have a problem with the idea of a 'tithe' as it is construed these days is that I think it enables a cop-out mindset, a sense of having done your 'duty' not to mention the idea that a reward is attached. The question that never seems to get asked is, would you do it for nothing, just out of sheer gratitude and then forget all about it? Really at the heart of it, it seems that a large part of Christianity has become just a tithe of life, 10% is enough.

It seems we have become so results orientated that we cannot let go of everything and let the Lord do as He wishes in and through us...[/i]

Have flopped around on this issue like a fish out of water over the years. But recently the thought's above started to dawn on me more and more.

Find it extremely difficult to borrow out just this segment from the old covenant and apply it today. There is just a smattering of principle in it the way it is used in our modern teaching and has to make some huge leaps and bounds to square with the new covenant.

And as it was mentioned, don't recall coming across it in church history until much closer to our times. Would agree with Karl here, it can put you in a pretzel, that you are somewhat bound, but your not, at least that's the reasoning that went on in this cranium and that sense of legalism, that check in the spirit. Primarily was leaning on what many a preacher was saying as opposed to studying it out for myself. Eventually found it to be a subtle guilt trip, which is odd being that I love to give, it wasn't that, but that by 'bucking the trend' well, there is that other issue of [i]pleasing men[/i]...

Lahry's thought's brought to mind something I had heard awhile back about a Baptist congregation that would in an Act's sort of fashion take one of it's members every month or so and pay off all their debts with specific offerings from the rest of the congregation...

Give out of the abundance of your heart.



_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/4/17 23:52Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Tithing and Mosaic Law

Quote:

dann wrote:
The only way the tithe can be taught, is to teach that the mosaic covenant is still partially in effect - that the new covenant is just another patch on the old.



You quoted Hebrews 8:13, and then cite it as a reason to abolish tithing as 'Mosaic law', when Hebrws 7 goes into Abraham bringing his tithe to Melchizadek. This would mean that the tithe is actually part of the Abraham's display of faith, preceding Mosaic Law. If we are now of the "seed of Abraham", then wouldn't that mean that tithing stays?

As far as what ministers do with the money, was Israel meant to withold the burnt offerings while Eli was high priest? Personally, I believe that it's easy to blame the law, when something comes that resists the flesh, and tithing definitely does that.

By the way, did anyone read the [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1788&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go"]link[/url] that Ron posted?


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2005/4/18 3:45Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Tithing and Mosaic Law

Thanks Aaron,

That link you provided [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=1&topic_id=1788&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Tithing is not a Old Testament Law ![/url] just in case (Ron's response is the most recent).

To clarify something. I believe the effort here is to only get at the truth of the matter and that is in the ideal that we are 'held' to something in this regard. Are we in effect 'commanded' as in 'obedience to'? Is this scripturally accurate? Is this in the way it is used in many a church structure accurate?

Would like to think that as believers the last thing anyone is looking for is an escape clause.
It just seems to me that in one sense it is just that, from the other perspective. That you could give so little and have a sense of 'accomplishment' when what we read of the brethren as they came together after the Holy Spirit was given and poured out everything of their means, including and up to their very lives.

Another consideration is, borrowing from a familiar quote about "how much the church 'does' without the Holy Spirit", what might happen to many a church if [b]only[/b] the free will offerings of it's members were given, not being able to depend on a forward looking expectation week to week of what it's income would be from the tithe.

Realizing there is a bit more to it than that, but still, a ministry like this here, is sustained by faith and the giving out of the heart.

Just something to ponder.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/4/18 8:44Profile









 100% is HIS money!

The idea that only 10% is the Lords money and the rest is ours is really crazy. The way I see it 100% belongs to the Lord and I am just a steward of HIS money.

1 Cor 16:1-2 "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

2 Cor 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

 2005/4/18 9:53
Nellie
Member



Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re:

I like this, Mike, as well as the others who gave their opinion.
In a lot of Churches now, they don't want to tell you what the money is going for.
There is so much need everywhere, that I'm sure God will lead us to give somewhere.
It is more than money, anyway.

I really like to watch David Wilkinson and Carter
Video's.
They rarely mention money.
Investing in the Home Gathering Video's was the best investment I've ever made.

God Bless you, one and all.
Nellie

 2005/6/2 14:33Profile





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