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EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Only Enoch, Elijah, Moses in Heaven? Not David and other saints? (HELP AGAIN!)

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

First off, I just wanted to say a big THANK-YOU to all your help to me so far in the past! I definitely would not have been able to survive if it wasn't for all your support.
Now another thing has sorts arisen that I need help with. YOur helpful would be so much appreciated!

So basically at my school there is a group that most people see as borderline cult and typically avoid. They are 7th day adventists and are one of the most active groups at the school. I felt led to reachout to them because there are actually sheep in there that truly desire to know God but are being trapped under a religious principality!
I attended the service and found it really dry though they were very scriptural and sang worship songs. I wouldn't judge by that though what got really interesting was when they started teaching the topic of the night was "The Witch of Endor"
Here was the main premise that I need insight on:
1. They pointed to the fact that the spirit of Samuel that spoke to Saul was not truly the prophet taking 1 Sam 28:6, Deuteronomy 18:10-11 and Revelation 16:14.
They continued and pointed out the fact that spirits of dead cannot talk to us using Ecc 9:5-6 which says the dead know nothing and Psalm 115:17 saying "the dead do not praise the Lord"
2. They then stated that when someone dies they sleep and become unconscious unaware of time in the grave until judgement and do not go to heaven or hell right away. They used Ecc 12:7, Job
21:32 and John 5:28-29

3. Then they pointed out that David is still in the grave sleeping from ACTS 2:29, 1 KINGS 2:10 AND ACTS 2:34
They also went on to explain that only Enoch, Elijah and Moses were in heaven but all other saints were sleeping and only special ones were chosen to be in heaven right now….
At this point I interjected and point out examples of the theif on the cross, Stephen seeing Christ and saying Lord receive my spirit and Paul saying that he wanted to depart and be with the Lord.

I was quickly refuted with interpretations of thief not being literally as Christ said today you would be with me in paradise in Luke 23:43 but then being in the Garden with Mary in John 20:17.
Then they said that he would be in paradise later but only after he sleeps and same with the other example I pointed out.

Now the part that got really interesting was when I started to bring up scriptures about going to heaven and hell. They said people cant go to heaven right away because scripture says “the dead do not praise God” I brought up sheol in the OT as referring to hell but they dismissed that as grave and not a literal eternal hell….(I need help with this too)

If someone could help give some insight into this it would be very helpful! I am planning on meeting with the leader this week to talk it over again.

In Christ
Evangel

 2012/3/16 11:11Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re: Only Enoch, Elijah, Moses in Heaven? Not David and other saints? (HELP AGAIN!)

Brother...

Tread CAREFULLY. The SDA are like any other good cult. They take bits and pieces of truth in scripture, and blend it with falseness. You will notice this by how they have an answer for everything and it seems legit.

Example. I had long conversations with SDA's on Facebook (When I was on there at least, I am no longer on Facebook,.) I had a conversation with them about the rich young ruler. They tried to explain to me that Jesus talked to the rich young ruler about everything BUT the sabbath. Since the rich young ruler did not mention the sabbath, Jesus knew this in his heart, hence the reason that he (the rich young ruler) turned away, because he could not give up his money, and that Jesus knew that he (ruler) did not follow the sabbath.

Truth mixed in with error.

So brother, I am going to lift you up in prayer. Praying protection over you. Please know that you are walking into a den of darkness by meeting with their leader this week.

Please know that the enemy is trying to get his grip on you at this point. DO NOT get into a debate about scripture with these folks, unless lead from the Lord.

Blessings brother!


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/3/16 11:50Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1717


 Re: Only Enoch, Elijah, Moses in Heaven? Not David and other saints? (HELP AGAIN!)

I would love to help you but I need time to refer to all these verses. A general help is Bible refers to a person who is living an ungodly life as DEAD. So dead cannot praise God means a man who is ungodly cannot praise God. Also the fact that David's tomb is still here does not mean he did not go to heaven. We do not take this body to go to heaven. We get transformed into a body that is glories like Jesus.

Philippians 3:21:-
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


_________________
Sreeram

 2012/3/16 12:00Profile









 Re: Only Enoch, Elijah, Moses in Heaven? Not David and other saints?

The SDA are Christians that go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday. That’s the only difference between the SDA and all the other denominations.

Why should we label anyone a cult? The Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Presbyterian, Calvinist, Catholics, Lutherans, Pietism,Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism or what ever movement is out there are no better than the SDA.

All of these groups have a different understanding or believe system about various scripture. How dare we to label anyone as a cult?

None of these organizations reverence Yahweh, none of them uphold the commandments, that’s all that matters. So please check yourself before embarking on a name calling crusade. Thank you.

As for the OP, the scriptures clearly says in John 3:13

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

That’s’ all I need to hear.

 2012/3/16 15:34
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Paul gives us a couple important clues:

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:8 NIV)

Are willing rather (eudokoumen). Rather, "We are well-pleased, we prefer" if left to ourselves. Cf. Philippians 1:21. Same eudokew used in Luke 3:22. To be at home with the Lord (endhmhsai prov ton Kurion). Are willing rather (eudokoumen). At home with the Lord is in the first aorist (ingressive) active infinitive. (Robertson) That is to say, he wishes that it would happen once and for all.

But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better. (Phil. 1:22, 23)

Our key words here are, 'To depart' (eiv to analusai). Purpose clause, eiv to and the aorist active infinitive analusai, old compound verb, to unloose (as threads), to break up, to return (Luke 12:36, only other N.T. example), to break up camp (Polybius), to weigh anchor and put out to sea, to depart (often in old Greek and papyri). Cf. kataluw in 2 Corinthians 5:1 for tearing down the tent.

Clearly Paul is not suggesting a sort of soul sleep. He intends to depart and be with Christ in the simple sense of that statement.

It is important to understand that error produces more error. In 1844 the Seventh Day Adventist suffered what is termed the great disappointment (the Lord didn't return as expected). From that time they had to backtrack and reinterpret events so as to avoid the charge of false prophecy. No need to expound it here as these things are easily discovered by a simple search. However, I would not go so far as to say that the Adventists are a cult, etc. They have some false views eschatologically and soteriologically, but cult is too strong in my view.

As to the matter of keeping the commandments of Christ and God that subject has been well traveled in these forums. A simple search on google with sermonindex in the search window will bring up several.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2012/3/16 16:04Profile









 Re:

"Tread CAREFULLY. The SDA are like any other good cult. They take bits and pieces of truth in scripture, and blend it with falseness."

Good call brother. They are no different than JW and mormons as they preach a false accursed "gospel".

In Christ -Jim

 2012/3/16 16:43









 Re:

theEphah said:

"None of these organizations reverence Yahweh, none of them uphold the commandments, that’s all that matters"

And yet the MODERATORS continue to let this Judaizer go uncheck. (Isaiah 1:5,6)



yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
(Gal 2:16-17)


Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, "Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband." Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
(Gal 4:21-31)


I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!
(Gal 5:12)


Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh--
(Php 3:2-3)

Even though some have been silent on this issue, thankfully God and the scriptures are not.

 2012/3/16 16:49









 Re:

"Now the part that got really interesting was when I started to bring up scriptures about going to heaven and hell."

If you think that is interesting, wait until you get to their false prophetess ellen whites strange sexual and dietary laws... interesting indeed. They wont spring those on you right away though, you will have to be slowly indoctrinated before you are allowed to work your way up to the good stuff.

Respectfully yours -Jim

 2012/3/16 18:17









 Re:

Here is part of a post by SI moderator Paul West on an older thread about SDA:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18613&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

"Seventh Day Adventist doctrine espouses annihilationism, soul sleep and investigative judgment. Annihilationsim denounces a literal hell. Soul Sleep defies the belief that the soul is eternal. Investigative Judgment teaches that the judgment of believers has been in process since 1844. They abstain from meats, teach others to do so, and place a legal emphasis on sabbatarianism. They also view their church as the true "remnant", a similiar belief held respectively by the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, the Roman Catholic Church, United Pentecostal Church, etc."

 2012/3/16 18:31









 Re: Only Enoch, Elijah, Moses in Heaven? Not David and other saints? (HELP AGAIN!)

You do realize that your setting yourself up for a fall?

Your not fully equipped scripturally to answer this SDA leader, he will drown you with his scripture knowledge and you'll run away with your tail between your legs, worse, in doubt of what you believe.

I've been down this road myself and had to learn the hard way, so I am giving you an easy way out. Don't bother going!

Resist the temptation of trying to win these people over with your pitiful knowledge of the scriptures. Feel sorry for them from a distance and ask the Lord if He wants you there. Most likely He will tell you to leave them be, "come follow me".

Unless you have a greater truth than they, for what you'll offer them through this study they have heard before and are well equipped to answer any rebuttals you may have, you'll be wasting your time throwing your pearls before swine.

What you should be talking about with them is the law, they are the Galatian Church gone bad. In their ignorance they embrace grace but they also embrace law, they have a double standard. They don't know it but they say Christ crucified, and then turn around and embrace law which obliterates faith. This is confusion!

Because they embrace law as their means for salvation, their belief in Christ is dead. Even when they will argue tooth and nail that they believe in grace.

The devil loves it when we talk about things that don't touch the cross. When you touch the cross and remove their beloved law, then you'll find an enemy that will thrust you out of their borders lest their members are tainted by your grace only theology.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The SDA are under the curse. If Paul had a hard time convincing the Jew that the law was fulfilled in Christ and we obtain favour with God by faith, your going to have a hard time with the limited understanding that you have to convince these people. To convince these people, your going to need a demonstration of the power of God that Christ is alive and not dead. Thus, those that die in Christ are not dead, for how can we who have His Spirit and are members of His body be dead? We are Him and He is us, and Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God and we sit together with Him in heavenly places. How can the grave hold anyone that has been justified by God? People went to the grave because there was no way to redeem them to heaven, but when Christ died He went into the lower regions and preached to the spirits that were in prison and resurrected them from that place seeing that it was impossible for the grave to hold them any longer. Jesus who was unjustly condemned, died and the grave could no hold Him there. The grave was opened for anyone who was a sinner, but if the sin was forgiven, the grave can no longer hold him. It's like a judge pardoning a prisoner who had served time for many years, the prison doors have to be opened, he is free to leave. Abels blood cried out from the ground. We can only speculate what that those words were, but let me speculate, "Why am I down here?", "Where is the justice?". The same in the book of revelation of the souls under the altar, "How long oh Lord will you not avenge the blood of your servants?"

From how I understand the scriptures, there is no born again Christian residing in the grave, except for the bones, ashes that lay there. But the essence of that person of who they were is with God. This is how I see the hope. That when we die, we will meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 2012/3/16 18:33





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