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CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Reconciliation of 1 Cor 11:5 and 1 Cor 14:34!

Recently I have been discussing the issue of women being silent in an assembly of the church with some Christians and someone mentioned that 1 Cor 14:34 could not possibly mean that women were to be silent in the common sense of the English word because it would contradict 1 Cor 11:5 where it talks of women needing to wear a head covering when they pray or prophecy (which would of course involve speaking).

So...not knowing what to say about that apparent contradiction I brought the matter up before the Lord and here is what He led me to understand.

I present it here to allow Him to give me more adequate understanding or even correction through those of you here who might care to comment on what I have been led to understand bearing in mind that I may yet not understand things as well as I ought to.

First let me quote the verses in question...(from the NASB or New American Standard Bible)...

1 Cor 11:5 says "But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying..."

1 Cor 14:34 says "The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak..."

The context of these instructions is important. For example in 1 Cor 14:35 a woman may speak out and ask her husband whatever she wants to know about whereas in 1 Cor 14:34 she is not allowed to speak out at all.

The difference is the context.

In 1 Cor 14:34 the context for the application of that instruction is an assembly of the church whereas in 1 Cor 14:35 the context is the home where a woman can speak out freely.

As I prayed to the Lord to give me insight on this apparent contradiction (between being allowed to speak with a head covering and not in an assembly) and how to get around it, it dawned on me that the context of the instruction to remain silent in 1 Cor 14:34 is absolutely clear.

1 Cor 14:19 - "...however, in the church..."
1 Cor 14:23 - "Therefore if the whole church assembles together..."
1 Cor 14:26 - "...When you assemble..."

The context of the instruction for women to remain silent is an assembly of the church. The whole church.

Bear with me...

Now let's look at 1 Cor 11:5 and whatever context might pertain to those instructions.

In many circles the instructions about head coverings is assumed to be an assembly of the church. Yet when I asked the Lord about the context I came to realize that the context there is not clear at all.

It simply does not say.

Paul praises the Corinthians for holding on to traditions that he previously taught them (1 Cor 11:2) and then immediately goes into teaching about head coverings.

The first time a context is even mentioned is in 1 Cor 1:17 and 18 which says...

"But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you;"

A church assembling together again but is that context tied to the instructions about head coverings?

The Amplified Bible puts it this way...

"But in what I instruct [you] next I do not commend [you], because when you meet together, it is not for the better but for the worse. For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it..."

According to the Amplified Bible the instructions that Paul attaches to the context of a church assembly are those instructions which he is about to talk about NOT those on head coverings that he just finished instructing them about!

Here is what I believe to be a more correct interpretation of of how 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14 fit together.

Head coverings are to be understood as general instructions to Christians in the church. Not as instructions for how they ought to be in an assembly of the church but in general as to how they ought to be overall.

Women in general are to wear a head covering when they pray or prophesy and men not.

Because of the angels (1 Cor 11:10). Angels are never not present (which would tie into the general context).

Whereas the instructions about women being silent in an assembly of the church in 1 Cor 14:34 and not speaking out in a prophetic utterance or other gift that expresses itself through speaking are attached to the context of an assembly of the church.

This interpretation allows both sets of instructions to perfectly blend together while not discounting or negating what each set says individually about head coverings or women being silent in the church.

This makes perfect sense.

A professor at a college might tell his students that they can all contact their friends through their cell phones by text messaging them any time they want but that in the context of his classroom that they must turn off their cell phones.

Women are to wear a head covering any time they pray or prophecy anywhere except in an assembly of the church where they are not allowed to speak prophetically or in any other way which involves expressing a gift of the Spirit through public speaking to the whole church.

Thoughts on this reconciliation between 1 Cor 11 and 1 Cor 14 anyone?

Carlos

 2012/3/10 19:27Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re: Reconciliation of 1 Cor 11:5 and 1 Cor 14:34!

We just had a pretty long thread about this very issue here: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=43212&forum=34&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Welcome to the forum brother!!

Much peace and grace to you!

 2012/3/10 19:37Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Reconciliation of 1 Cor 11:5 and 1 Cor 14:34!

Carlos,

You can find numerous sermons here on SI that cover the topic (no pun intended), they are at the following link...

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/scr_index.php?act=topicSermons&topic=Head%20Covering&page=0

But brother, I'm wondering why you would join this forum and start out posting on such a divisive topic? There have been numerous threads discussing the topic over the years and they have been often non-productive, I hope this will not be added to their rank.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2012/3/10 20:17Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re:

Quote:
But brother, I'm wondering why you would join this forum and start out posting on such a divisive topic? There have been numerous threads discussing the topic over the years and they have been often non-productive, I hope this will not be added to their rank.



Hi Ron,

This forum is to discuss the word of God is it not?

How ridiculous would I be to rebuke a new visitor to my fellowship when he asks a question that we discussed a week before he visited.

 2012/3/10 20:27Profile
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Re:

Hi Ron,

I did look around before I posted and found nothing on the topic of how to reconcile 1 Cor 11 with 1 Cor 14 so I thought I would post on it.

As to why I chose this as my first topic I really had not intended to post on this topic and had another one that I initially wanted to post on (the free expression of the gifts of the Spirit within the Body) but as I prayed about it the Lord seemed to lay on my heart to post about this first as something that He had led me to understand within the last week.

I had never before seen how to reconcile these two passages and was excited about it and just wanted to share what the Lord had led me to realize about it.

So I posted it.

I hope that was okay.

Carlos

PS. I wish I could figure out how to receive notice of replies from this forum as it is impractical for me to keep coming back to check (I belong to many different forums and am all over the place on the internet in line with both my work and interests).

 2012/3/10 20:30Profile
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Re:

Thanks for the tip on the thread learjet.

I read through much of that thread and really saw nothing on how to reconcile 1 Cor 11:5 with 1 Cor 14:34 but lots on head coverings.

Unfortunately I also saw a lot of what I usually see in Christian forums where such issues are discussed.

Personal opinion and back and forth discussing all manner of aspects of the issue other than what is written exactly. I don't mean from everyone on the thread but quite a bit of that type of discussion nevertheless.

Carlos

 2012/3/10 20:36Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
So I posted it.

I hope that was okay.



It certainly was OK, and I apologize if I left you feeling unwelcome here, just weary of the heated threads I guess...

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2012/3/10 21:16Profile
CarlosBCG
Member



Joined: 2012/3/10
Posts: 87


 Re:

Thanks for getting back to me Ron. In all honesty what you said was really discouraging and left me rather deflated.

It's not just you though...I too am utterly sick and tired of Christians in general.

Nobody seems to give a you know what about what the Word really says.

Everybody seems to simply spout off their own interpretations based on a whole boatload of assumptions about this or that.

I recently was discussing some of this on a thread on another forum and one of the most vocal one's against the plain meaning of what is written was a person whose entire interpretation was based on assumptions about what the word "silence" meant based on how it was used in other verses, and how we might use the word today. Never mind what Paul actually said or the context in which he said it.

It's like there are blinders over the heart of many who, while having eyes, simply don't see.

Christians get into useless discussions over opinions, assumptions, and conjectures while effectively ignoring whole swaths of the New Testament.

Sometimes I absolutely hate the Christians. I kid you not.

The so-called learned Christians who think they know something are some of the worst.

So I understand where you are coming from in being tired of seemingly fruitless discussion.

At the same time Ron I would encourage you to consider that I was trying to exercise my gift which I believe lies in the prophetic realm (as in encouraging, exhorting, and comforting others). The exercise of my gift may be childlike at present, if indeed it is, but an attempt to exercise a gift should be encouraged not frowned upon.

Even if something has been discussed a thousand times and someone comes into our midst who wants to exercise a teaching or whatever other gift they have by starting a new thread...I say allelujah! Another Christian willing to express what the Spirit may be laying on their hearts.

Such Christians outside the learned one's (if they really are learned in the eyes of God) are in short supply.

I'm not trying to beat up on you Ron. I just want you to realize how discouraging words like yours can be to some, like me, who experience little more than complete baloney from most of the so-called Christians when I speak up and share something that most consider outdated for today's times but which I believe to be nevertheless God's will for how we ought to conduct ourselves in the Body.

In any case I think I'll be discussing these things on other forums mostly because the lack of a subscription functionality here is a very real inconvenience for me though I need to pray about that some as the Lord may be tugging on my heart to stick around here a little longer.

Carlos

 2012/3/11 0:09Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Carlos,

In Ron's defense, it is true some of those that have been here are weary of the tit for tat on this subject, but I do believe there are some new people here that also started out talking about this subject when they joined and probably will engage you. They did not seem to be fulfilled in the last conversation on this subject.

Pilgrim

 2012/3/11 8:42Profile









 Re: Carlis

Brother I see you are new here. You seen to think that the head covering and silence themes are nothing but opinion. I doubt very seriously if you have studied all of the threads involved. Well meaning people on both sides of the issues have posted scriptures almost to the point of exhaustion.

Some of us have looked at the scriptures and through prayer and meditation arrived at our own understanding on these issues. Granted not everybody agrees on these issues. But we all see as a poor reflection in a,mirror.

If you are really serious about the truth in these issues then study the passages involved. Do a prayerful inductive study of the verses. Ask the Holy Spirit to unlock the truth. That woukd be far more rewarding then the opinions of men.

Blaine Scogin

 2012/3/11 11:09





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