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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The vileness of the saint

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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
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 Re:

Quote:
His own littleness is accentuated. That God should look at all upon sinful men now amazes him. "The end of the Lord" is reached at last, and he cries out: "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" …. he condemns himself and glorifies the Lord.



Is this saying that the sin Job repented from was: not abhorring himself and failing to condemn himself. Was God’s aim to instill in Job a sense of self-condemnation and a perception of himself as “vile” (to use the KJV rendering) – that is, a despicable loathsome sinner. Yet why does God himself not condemn Job as such, and why are Job’s three friends condemned for accusing Job of sin as the cause of his suffering. Or were they simply too easy on Job? I might consider that a possibility, being that a deficient view of God is indeed a vile sin. And I suspect we could all put ourselves in that category.

PS: I readily stress, along with Spurgeon, the importance of recognizing our capacity to commit the vilest atrocities against others. We are capable of the worst of sins. Yet, is this theology of sin to be drawn from Job in this particular account? It seems that Job is in actuality recognizing his littleness and God’s greatness in comparison. His former misconception is shock to him and he despises himself after his encounter with God. That reminds me of Peter’s encounter with the Lord: “Depart from me, for I am a sinner.” But, we wouldn’t want to make that a virtue in itself, would we? It's simply human reaction to an encounter with God (see Jesus-is- God's earlier post)


Just some thoughts...


Diane


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Diane

 2012/3/5 22:30Profile
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Joined: 2008/8/23
Posts: 100


 Re: The vileness of the saint

I think I understand where you are coming from oj. I have been praying for an encounter with the living God such as Isaiah had. I know to most this might be strange but, I think without a better understanding of the Holiness of God we will never understand how sinfull we are. Hence we never will understand His mercy and then His grace. I could be wrong but I don't see anywhere in scripture where God rebukes a man for recognizing his wickedness. Perhaps we would do well to pray that God would open a man's eyes to understand His grace in His time rather than trying to convince someone he is just, when God might be wanting the person to travel to the depths of despair first.
When I read the accounts of the revivals it seems as if takes a man to the oint where he feels so wicked that he is utter fear of God before He shows him His love.

 2012/3/5 22:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Is this saying that the sin Job repented from was: not abhorring himself and failing to condemn himself. Was God’s aim to instill in Job a sense of self-condemnation and a perception of himself as “vile” (to use the KJV rendering) – that is, a despicable loathsome sinner.



Job's sin was justifying himself at the expense of condemning God. He so much as said that he did not deserve what God had sent, making God an unjust Judge. One sin of ANY kind DESERVES the worst and Job wasn't sinless, it is only by grace that we do not get what we deserve.

God did what he did to prove that the BEST of men need a change of mind about self and God.

EXAMPLE: I still work out regularly and see a lot of young kids come into the gym. They get their first taste of weights and a month or two later they think they are very strong because they now lift a bit more than when they came in, but they still can't fill up a bar. After 30+ years in the iron game, even though I lift a 425 lb triple on the deadlift I look around the gym and see that there are 1000's of pounds of weight and equipment there that I cannot lift. Then I go outside and look at the building, then the parking lot, then think that this whole big ball is just hanging out in the middle of nowhere at the command of God. God is holding me, everything I am lifting, the planet I am lifting it on, and some galaxies besides. Even though I may be one of the strongest guys in the gym it is then that I realize just how weak I actually am. Why? Because when I stopped comparing myself to other men, and compared myself to omnipotence the difference was so vast as count my strength as nothing.

Like the young kids in the gym, men think they are holy and righteous because they compare themselves to other men, or unwisely compare themselves with themselves (2 Cor 10:12) and judge favourably in their own case on top of it. But when you stack your righteousness up next to God's you can come away with nothing other than that you are vile. That is what a meeting with God causes, and it is only the saints that meet with God.

If you are a saint and have met with God, you will be thankful His righteousness is imputed to you because you realize that any practical or imparted righteousness you claim is too vile to measure up to perfection. Even your best prayers are loaded with sin...

This right sight of God is what causes the saints to cry out, "Behold, I am vile", and is the stumblingstone that enemies of God loath to embrace...

Sure, many will own their regeneration, their holiness, their kindness, their love, their whatever it is that puffs them up, but this doesn't puff up, it deflates, and is too hard to take for those who must justify self at the expense of God. This is what Job (among the best of men) was to teach us.

Further reading
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/except2.html

"But behind all this there is another and a deeper problem; it is the evil in the hearts of the best of men and the necessity of judging oneself in the light of the holiness of God; and this is repentance."

OJ

 2012/3/6 0:00









 Re:

"Men think they are holy and righteous because they compare themselves to other men, and judge favourably in their own case on top of it."

Not sure what circles you travel in Joe, but Christians, genuine Christians ,know that they are made righteous by the blood of the Lamb. If by your above statement you are saying that genuine Christians are not righteous in the sight of God, then you have exposed a deep error in the theology that you follow.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Joe, have you received an abundance of grace? Have you received the gift of righteousness? And if you have received these things, did you receive them because the Lord owed you something, did you work for these things? By despising yourself and having a ministry of pointing out the vileness of men, are you owed by God?

All genuine Christians seek to walk deeply with their Lord. "As the deep panteth for the waterbrooks so my soul longeth after thee." And in that longing and searching to go deeper, the Lord is found by those who diligently seek Him. Its not a one time deal, we pursue and seek out the Lord all of our days. We encounter Him and in that encounter we certainly see ourslves in the light of Christ and if it were not for the blood of the Lamb we would despair. Yet, praise the Lord we also see the train of His robe filling the temple. We are filled to overflowing by His joy, and there is strength in that. Joy that we have been counted worthy to enter into His sufferings. Joy that we are known by Him and that we know Him.

If a Christian can only testify of their misery and their foulness and they have no conception of their deliverence and their state before a Holy God, then something is seriously wrong and that one would have to examine His heart, beware when he claimed to stand, see if he is indeed in the faith........... bro Frank

 2012/3/6 0:45









 Re:

Well Appolus lay it out on the table, tell us how righteous you are compared to God.

OJ

 2012/3/6 0:49









 Re:

Answer to Joe.......

"Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ."

You can try and change the question to suit your agenda Joe, but the above Scripture is what I gave you, not the straw man question that you asked. You can subjectivly say all the day long that when men and woman claim to be made righteous by the blood of the Lamb that they are puffed up, but that is just your opinion Joe. As far as I know, no one on this site has ever claimed to be righteous in comparison to God, that is just being silly, unless you can give examples that I am unaware of. Joe, do you consider anyone on this site to be saved?........ bro Frank

 2012/3/6 1:01









 Re:

Quote:
Joe, do you consider anyone on this site to be saved?........ bro Frank



Yup, and having met Him, they own their vileness before God. For the Christian there is nothing somber or dark about owning our own vileness in comparison to the righteousness of God, it is joyful to know that by owning what we are, we have judged ourselves and will not come under judgment. This is grace, we are vile and God receives us anyway because we are marked with the Blood of His dear Son.


OJ

 2012/3/6 1:34
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

i think it is verry intersting , to read in the gosple of luke i think ,,,that jesus said ,we should not call our selfs righteous servents ,,, but unjust servents ,,doing what is our duty ,,,,,now i believe this is speaking in contex ,with the vilness ,or unjust atatude that we should have that is spoken of by the propherts ,and what joe is talking about


do you brothers and sistes of the word ,no about what jesus said about this ,,,,im wonder are you aware of the scripture regarding this

i was going to do alittle message about this scripture a few weeks back ,,,,but for some reason i was holding back

ill go through the gosple of luke to show the scripture

unless one of my beloved brothers and sisters ,might like to post the scripture im talking


tho i may be righeous
i will as jesus said and i agree with him ,,call my self an unjust servent ,,,,,,,scripture says , not even the heaven are pure in his sight

 2012/3/6 4:14Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Old Joe, I think your analogy of weight lifting is fitting. You use it to draw out the idea of comparison. And isn’t that what Job experienced? By his encounter with God, he came to see himself against a new measuring stick. Here’s where modern English translations may be more accurate to Job’s experience than the KJV: Ex the “I am insignificant” NASB; “I am unworthy” NIV; “I am nothing” NLT; “I am of small account”.

In the NIV The word “vile” is used several times elsewhere. But none of these examples are applied to an honest humble self concept:
“No my friends, don’t be so vile” (the homosexuals at Lot’s door);
“Ashtoreth the vile goddess”
“the enemy is this vile Haman”;
“a vile and corrupt man who drinks up evil like water (Job. 15:16);
“The Lord…. despises a vile man but honors those who fear the Lord”;
“vile images” (ie, idols),
“ungodly and wicked, every mouth speaks vileness” Is. 9:17

In today’s English usage “vile” means:

Vile:
1. wretchedly bad: a vile humor.
2. highly offensive, unpleasant, or objectionable: vile slander.
3. repulsive or disgusting, as to the senses or feelings: a vile odor.
4. morally debased, depraved, or despicable: vile deeds (ex the Laodecian church)
5. foul; filthy: vile

Was Job actually repulsive to God because of a sinful life/ vile nature? I raise this point because there is a sense of “vileness” that is highly destructive spiritually, emotionally, and relationally. The historical church itself has at times exploited this - monopolized on this self-concept of “vile”. The aim is to keep people feeling condemned. Then you can have power and control over them. They’ll keep on needing the church to absolve their guilt. Even apart from a religious background, a generalized self-concept of vileness has imprisoned many in emotional disorders. For these people their measuring stick was not a God-encounter, but an encounter with humans who never loved them as worthy beings. (ex abuse, etc) And THAT is a key difference!

Quote:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



I would say that we are dealing with a paradoxical reality: Our God-encounters drop us to the ground with a sense of utter wretchedness and smallness, and in that position we find our restored place through God’s mercy: lifted up –seated with him in the heavenlies. (Eph)

Here’s my caution: Let God bring this about for others – because when we humans either debase or absolve others through our distorted theologies (or whatever), we destroy faith.

Our calling is to bring Life not death. Job 4 is a case where modern translations seem more in keeping with the other God-encounters found in scripture. And it may be more helpful for today’s church – many who perhaps have come out of a debasing kind of Christianity.

PS: brothergary, would any of this resonate with you, in your vision for a message.

Diane


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Diane

 2012/3/6 8:31Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

A wee observation: The Hebrew word used for "vile" is used 81 times in the OT, and seems mostly used in reference to "cursed", but also a wide array of other renderings. Context would be key here wouldn't it?



Peter's words "Depart from me for I am a sinner" - seem to apply too: "God - I can't stand looking at myself!" In such God-encounters his bright light exposes our unholiness to us. Isn't that why Adam and Eve went running for some fig leaves?


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Diane

 2012/3/6 8:51Profile





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