| Re: |
i would look at ezekiel 36 and ch. 37 it is a great chapters on regeneration, God gives us a new heart and our free will always decide not to choose God, but i understand where you our all coming from but i believe they have to be regenerated before they repent or it is possible it is all simutaneously.
| 2009/11/18 2:15||Profile|
| Re: |
I believe that it is simultaneous. Repentance and conversion are two sides of the same coin.
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey
| 2009/11/18 11:21||Profile|
| Re: |
Paul was touched first. He was on his way somewhere when God made himself known.
THEN he had a choice to repent.
| 2009/11/18 14:41||Profile|
| Re: |
Only God really knows, but belief (faith) and repentance must be either simultaneous, or the former precedes the latter. Once cannot repent unless one believes in God.
Without God, the sinful man is happy living in his natural worldly environment. Without God, he would be content and would have no reason to repent.
| 2009/11/18 15:28||Profile|
| Re: Does Repentance Come After Conversion?|
I think it is not wise to say in a four step box how God converts a man. Jesus said "repent and believe"
Some may have faith preceded their repentance, others may have it at one moment, others may have faith first only to repent later, maybe a minute after faith maybe an hour i dont know.
One thing we know, one must repent and believe in order to be saved, and as everything it is a gift from God. And my personal conviction is a gift can be rejected, neglected and so on. But in what sequence it all comes down to, i think we could find testimonies from all over the theological camp with various sequences.
But it may be good to define what we meen by repentance? In my saving moment i turned towards God as my only hope in everything, i had little knowledge or thoughts on eternity at that moment, only life and the situation I was in. Some call that repentance, i chose to believe what he had done for me, and later when walking home, had a very powerful "born again" experience, had the testimony of the Spirit within me, i chose to stop living in some sins that i knew could not live in anymore, that was also a kind of repentance, and it continued for several days, the spirit showing me to get rid of music, language and words i used, and many many other things, that to was repentance and that i still do today.
So i think we need to define repentance, i think it is heresy to say one need to stop sin as a action before one can be born again. I dident. But my heart was in such a state that if any one had convinced me i could be saved from cut my hand off, i would do that, i would have done anything to be "saved" from what i had become.
If that is faith or repentance or both at the same time i know not, I just know Christ became my all that evening.
So i am a bit cautious of people trying to set up a "system" how it works out, Gods ways are not ours. Not as in how Christ saves us, the transaction and the guilt blotted out and how we can have forgiveness, but how the "process" of regeneration is played out.
The apostle Paul was on his way to kill christins when God just stopped him... he had not a single fiber of a thought of either repentance or faith.
Spurgeon had several weeks of agony and anguish of his sins before placing his faith in the Lord, i would call those weeks a form of repentance leading up to conversion.
I think when God see our lives, he has all knowledge, he paints a picture that will lead to "perfect" repentance for each and everyone of us.
| 2009/11/18 15:49||Profile|
| Re: |
There is something about man that always compels him to theorize, to exact, to neatly and logically boil everything down to a precise and irrefutable formula. This is precisely why the atheisists cannot accept God; but before we critique them, we need to know that this quest for "formulaic evidence" is also why there are so many sects and factions, denominations and debates among [i]us[/i] on the other side of the wall too.
One side of the wall wrangles over God's existence, and utilizes empirical science (or lack of) to ostensibly prove yea or nay; the other side uses the same logic and mindset to endlessly wrangle over the logistics of how God functions within His Government. For both sides - for the believer and unbeliever alike - obviously, there can never be any resolve as long as the endeavor remains to confine God's sovereignty to some formulaic package the finite mind of man can process.
Whether it be the occurence of Holy Spirit Baptism or the Born-Again experience, man has always sought to take it apart like a transmission engine in order to get an understanding of how it all runs (or how to prime it so that it will). If we can explain what comes first, then obviously we can break the rest down too. The Pentecostals have done this regarding the Baptism in the Holy Spirit; others have gone to great lengths in breaking down man's moral obligations, capabilities, restrictions, ad nauseum to the point that the mystery of the new Birth is no longer a mystery, but something to be categorized, hypothesized, legitimized.
I have found that the more I deign to understand in the salvific workings of God, the more I come to the inexorable conclusion that [i]I know absolutely nothing save that salvation comes through faith alone in Christ.[/i] To go any further than this (as to what comes first, etc.), to me, is to venture into a realm God has purposefully left "dark" or "in part", and I find much inconclusiveness, strife, havoc and commotion with each step I take as result. To me, it's like stepping into a dark room and claiming to know the way as you knock down chairs and bark your shin on the coffee table.
Which is what most theology debates amount to, in my opinion.
Paul Frederick West
| 2009/11/18 16:33||Profile|
| Re: Does Repentance Come After Conversion?|
Actually today i began a minor "study" or rather i would call it a search, to find out more about regeneration, not how it works out but more what happends after.
And it was a thrilling one i must say, even tho i am not finisched yet to see what Christ has done for us, rather then "how" he has done it is to me a much more worthy conversation, just noting down verses earlier to see the contrast from self to spirit, old man to new man , made alive in him, dead to resurrected, to be a slave to sin to be seated in heavenly places, from a present jerusalem to a heavenly Jerusalem.
and when i was coming to the wellknown verses "christ in me" , i was so struck by the discussions myself had had so many times, cal vs arminianism etc. How much energy in thought and effort i have laid on that, only to see what Paul says, what matters is a new creation....
that is what matters, but we so turn emphasis on "how". But the only thing that matters is a new creation, created by HIM, in HIM and for HIM to be transformed into HIM predestined to become like HIM just those 40 verses i noted down just was shining with brightness of that paper to me how easy we put emphasis on other things then what is the thing that matters.
ad how God have dumbfounded the wise to make all that available to any man through faith in Christ....
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Col 1:13 KJV)
It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation. (Gal 6:15 NLT)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:17 KJV)
I could write a book, thousands of volumes, and still how can you describe the greatest miracle that can take place since creation of the earth? God creating a new man out of an corrupt and evil man, haters of God, and giving such men, by his grace and transformation a chance to once somewhere in eternity to sit on his throne and reign with him?
its just so beyond comprehension what God has done, you cant understand it fully, yet we try figure it out.
That we would more realize what is ours once we have been regenerated, i feel after this search like there are an infinity of blessing to lay ahold of by faith in HIM. How i came into that, in what sequence matter not as much anymore, He purchased me, a divine transaction from old man to a new man.
i am just rambling on , just wanted to share some of my encouraged thoughts from seeing this today.
| 2009/11/18 17:03||Profile|
| 2009/11/18 17:22||Profile|
| Re: |
i am going to put some old testament scriptures speaking about not only regeneration but the conversion of men.
19And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
exekiel ch. 11
16Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.
| 2009/11/18 17:30||Profile|
| Re: |
1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
| 2009/11/18 17:31||Profile|