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 Re:

How do we know if someone has a servant's heart or not? Is it by following a custom that isn't necessary in these days?
The roads were dirty and dusty and they wore sandals in Jesus' day. It was necessary to wash one's feet then. Even Wesley believed that this was a teaching from Jesus that had symbolic implications of a heart condition.
How many are serving in 3rd world countries... risking their lives to care for every physical need of others in conditions that most of us dainty Americans couldn't bear - yet they never washed feet over here?
My favorite work of all was the elderly - just as an example. The worst curse for them was the care of what their diapers covered. Preventing rashes and bedsores. Few cared for the things that weren't shown on the outside of the patients. I'd go in on my day off to be sure they were properly fed and put to bed clean and covered in ointment because of this lack of concern - but never saw the need to wash people's clean feet at Church.

Customs fit the time period in this case.

And according to the New Testament, Epaph - no food at our grocery stores is unclean or prohibited.

And if no one worked on Saturdays by religious law - who would take over in the medical fields, policing, etc?

Only GOD ALMIGHTY KNOWS THE HEART of each person that calls upon His Name.

This type judging of others is dangerous for the one doing the judging. It truly is.
"All things" Will be shaken within our lifetimes and those things that were based upon outward appearance will surely be on the list of things that will not stand after He is done with the shaking that proves what we're all Truly made out of. Better to be tried now than to be judged for a stoney heart at His appearing, because spiritual pride is the sneakiest of all sins and the one sin that, though it doesn't show to our own congregations, will surely show itself in a situation as someone like Corrie Ten Boom found herself in. Stripped naked before men, humiliations to the highest degree. That's when our true spirituality will be all that we have left. GOD help us all to be men and women after His Own heart and not doing only the outward appearances of humility, genuine holiness, true servanthood and HIS LOVE.

I say - bring in on LORD GOD of hosts!


 2012/2/7 6:32
Matthew2323
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Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re: Articles

Ephah,

Here's a helpful article on why a legal observance of the Sabbath is no longer required:

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/downloads/sabbath_syllogism_2006.pdf


Sean,

If you would like a verse-by-verse treatment of 1st Cornithians try here:

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/downloads/first_cor_11_extract_concerning_headship_and_coverture.pdf

or even here:

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/downloads/first_cor_11_excerpt_women_praying_or_prophesying_under_cover.pdf


These three articles are lengthy, but well-written and very much worth the investement of your time.


Grace and peace,
Matthew


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Matthew

 2012/2/7 7:28Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2003
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

rbanks:

I think I know what you are trying to say, and if I may I would like to say a few things along that line. When we speak of legalism we are often using the same word with very different meanings. In a very literal sense legalism means the attempt to approach God or to attain righteousness by keeping laws. Just as in Buddhism there is a worship of Buddha, in legalism there is a worship if you will of the law. I know that many have tried to apply the term legalist to anyone who believes in holiness, obedience, etc., but to do so is to totally misuse the word and misunderstand its meaning.

I actually think what rbanks is describing here is what Paul talked about in Romans and other places. It is an attempt to please God through acts or works of the flesh. You see, the flesh is enmity against God and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Works of or acts of the flesh are not limited to evil deeds. We often look at deeds or works as either good or evil. But for a man who does good deeds out of his own flesh, his good deeds are counted as evil for they flow from a place of enmity with God. The Pharisees did many good deeds. In fact, they kept the law more perfectly than anyone else in all of Israel. Yet Jesus spoke of them as whitewashed tombs. They looked good on the outside where man could see them but inwardly they were evil. Paul speaks of his own struggle to try to please God through works of the flesh in Romans 7. He describes it a wretchedness that could only be remedied by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

When Jeremiah prophesied that God would write His laws in our hearts he did not mean that we would simply have assistance in keeping the law by an inward change of heart. Often as believers we act as the church at Galatia. We begin in faith saying that no one can be saved by works and rightly so, however we continue in our own flesh trying to be made perfect in works. Paul calls this a bewitching doctrine. Why? Because it causes us to leave the principles of the doctrine of grace, because it causes us to leave dependence on and reliance on the Spirit of God and leads us back into works of the flesh which are by definition in Romans 8 enmity against God.

Often with good intentions we see a requirement or a law in the Bible and we, out of a true desire to please God, set out in our flesh to keep that law. This is a step back into legalism by its proper definition. God desires that we live out of our born again spirit. This is what Jeremiah was talking about. If we do so we will not fall into sin and our works will be those of purity and holiness because they emanate from a spirit of purity.


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Travis

 2012/2/7 8:38Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Here we go again. The most popular word on this site is LEGALISM.



Since I am one of the noisy culprits around here who fervently rails against “legalism”, I probably should make some contribution on this thread. And since Jesus and biblical writers railed against it too, I believe I have plenty of support. For starts, there’s this verse.

“All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.” 1Cor 10:23-33

Did you note the superior law here? It’s in essence the Great Commandment of love. That’s the law that overrules all laws. It’s the spirit of law.

Quote:
Everyone that dares to obey the instructions of our Savior and our hevenly father who is Yahweh is either a legalist or belongs to some spooky movement.



TheEphah, Can you actually prove this with a quote from someone’s post? It seems to be more your own reaction. But it doesn’t help clarify the matter when such a generalized assumption gets tossed into the mix. It’s a bit of a door-closer.

Quote:
What I don't get, is why people think that to obey something that God has said, is legalism.


This is a valid question. I don’t think this is quite what is being said, though.

Oh… before proceeding, I must confess that legalism has been a powerful force in my own life. It wasn’t so much the laws in themselves (I didn’t LOOK legalistic), as a way my conscience was programmed to understand the faith. It kept my life in order for a season, but then I got stuck in it - until a God-sent crisis that exposed and unraveled it, and brought me deeper into Christ.

How’s this: A legalistic way of thinking turns every biblical instruction into universal laws – divorced from the superior law, the context, or the driving principle behind the instruction. (That’s my beef about Poonen’s exegesis on coverings) A legalist finds an instruction, and follows it with the hope of pleasing God. But he might not actually be pleasing God because he fails to observe 1 Cor10:23-33. His aim might be to earn divine approval, with no thought for the effect of his choices on others.

A legalistic operational mode of conscience inhibits one from understanding others and his effect on them. It’s the “Older Brother” syndrome. Remember, he was the one obeying all the laws. But he had no concept of the higher law of God: relationship with father, and brother. He didn’t even know himself. Imagine if he had met the younger brother returning home. He would have driven him away. That is the final outworking of legalism: It is self-focused: It’s all about ME being right with God as I understand that to be ….. and others….. well…… am I my brother’s keeper?

I’ll try to apply the higher law of love to a modern practice which no doubt would have been in the scriptures had it been written in our day: Watching TV.

Now there is no law about watching TV, so you must actually use your God-given brains (or rely on your pastor’s brains). If your conscience is legalistically wired, you might decide that TV spews out evil and so you turn off the TV to keep yourself pure. You play Solitaire instead. That can’t possibly corrupt you!

If you are wired to the spirit of God’s law, you may turn off the TV even from good programming so that you can free your time to benefit yourself - so that you can be used of God to benefit others.

Legalism hinders one from grasping the spiritual essence of scripture, and instead resorts to the black and white command sentences in themselves - as isolated entities floating around on their own. The spirit of the law integrates them in line with the higher law.

The spirit of the law drives you to care about the Body of Christ and your place in the wider picture of God’s kingdom. Why! You may choose to make yourself more adept at interpreting scripture by reading this excellent, thought provoking book:

Gordon Fee’s book, “How to Read the Bible for all its Worth”. (~250 pages)

No law requires such a choice…. but maybe it does for YOU. Because you love God, your neighbor and yourself, you might see such a project as worthwhile time spent, and God opens the door.

By the way, I raise Gordon Fee’s name because his exegesis, in part, is the impetus that got this whole flurry of post and threads going – on coverings/legalism and such. (See the spiritual covering thread opening article.)

Have I convinced any concerned skeptics yet?

Diane


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Diane

 2012/2/7 8:39Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Oh, I should add:

An antinomian is a legalist: What laws can I justly get AWAY from?

Right?

Diane


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Diane

 2012/2/7 8:50Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
A legalistic operational mode of conscience inhibits one from understanding others and his effect on them. It’s the “Older Brother” syndrome. Remember, he was the one obeying all the laws. But he had no concept of the higher law of God: relationship with father, and brother. He didn’t even know himself. Imagine if he had met the younger brother returning home. He would have driven him away. That is the final outworking of legalism: It is self-focused: It’s all about ME being right with God as I understand that to be ….. and others….. well…… am I my brother’s keeper?



Imagine a sister that has come to your house to meet with the Saints in fellowship. During the meeting she has something to share straight from the heart of God but is prevented from talking because she forgot her handkerchief or doily that she is supposed to have on top of her head.

Basically, the the kind of legalism rbanks is talking about is the legalism that prevents (Shut Up) the Life of God from operating. This type of legalism is always antagonistic to LIFE (mercy, forgiveness, love), because IT's requirements have not been met yet and IT's requirements are all that is important. Otherwise, God might have a fit. Funny how God is always used by men to control other men.

Matthew 23:13:
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye SHUT UP the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Acts 26:10: Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I SHUT UP in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Galatians 3:23:
But before faith came, we were kept UNDER THE LAW, SHUT UP unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

The Enemy thinks he can SHUT UP the Life of Christ. He has been losing that battle for 2,000 years.

I wonder if the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair, managed to keep her head covering on while she was doing it. Jesus did not have a fit so she must have succeeded in keeping it on.

Pilgrim


 2012/2/7 9:01Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Pilgrim you wrote:Imagine a sister that has come to your house to meet with the Saints in fellowship. During the meeting she has something to share straight from the heart of God but is prevented from talking because she forgot her handkerchief or doily that she is supposed to have on top of her head.
___
Otherwise, God might have a fit.
____

I wonder if the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair, managed to keep her head covering on while she was doing it. Jesus did not have a fit so she must have succeeded in keeping it on.

Pilgrim
__________________

I don't know your heart or the attitude in which the above portions of your post was written but it does come across as a bit mocking and sarcastic to me and so could be seen by those who do follow the convictions of their heart to cover their head as being unloving and unkind??? Just asking that perhaps you reread what you wrote and look at it from the point of a sister who might be reading it and is wearing the cloth out of love and submission toward her husband and the LORD...

God Bless
mary

 2012/2/7 9:14Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

MaryJane, you missed the point of the whole post.

The focus is on those who prevent (Shut Up) the Life of God from operating.

Pilgrim

 2012/2/7 9:16Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Pilgrim you wrote:MaryJane, you missed the point of the whole post.

The focus is on those who prevent (Shut Up) the Life of God from operating.

Pilgrim

________

No I got your point, I really do understand what you meant...Just thought perhaps there might have been a less sarcastic, mocking tone in the way you shared it is all?? I just wonder if you considered the way your post might sound to those sisters who do submit to wearing a head covering???


I have read several of your posts and you speak about loving those in the body of Christ do you feel that the way you addressed those sisters who do submit to the wearing of the head covering was in love and with a Christ like heart?? I realize they may not have been exactly who you were speaking to or of in your post and yet there are some here who do wear the covering and might not understand the sarcasm and mocking as not being directed toward them personally...

If I have misunderstood you then please forgive me.

As always God Bless you
mary

Edited: to be more clear in conveying my thoughts with you.

 2012/2/7 9:28Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

Annie, we know it was the custom of people who upon entering the house would have his feet washed by a servant before any socialization was done.

In Jesus' case - as recorded in John 13 - at the last supper, this was done AFTER supper had been eaten. Since this is the case, one must assume it was a ritual instituted that symbolized a servants heart.

Before anyone would criticize its observance by others I would suggest you do it - literally and see what it does to your spirit. Jesus did not tell us why to do it other then that we should do it. To do so is an act of faith.

In recent months there has been an outcry against anyone who would speak out against the literal obedience of the WORD. It is a mindset that really alarms me. It used to not be this way. There seems to be a coordinated effort by a select few who will use any post to downplay the application of 1Corinthians 11. You can start out on one topic and then bring in the head covering as an example of legalism. If its observance is legalistic to you, then I must conclude on the basis of 1Corinthians 11 that you have no authority because you are denying the headship order and this includes men. Men, if you want authority to speak the WORD of God, you must be under authority. Failure to do so will render you useless and worst.

One does not manipulate the WORD of God and win. Imagine Noah doing so when God told him to build the ark. Or, Abraham, when God told him to offer Isaac. These people are listed in the hall of fame for their faith. Hebrews 11. What earns them a position is their act of obedience to God's command/wishes.

It is love for God that motivates obedience. Our obedience will not earn one salvation - it simply demonstrates our love for Him. Love for God is the first and great commandment. How is this commandment operative in your life?


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Sandra Miller

 2012/2/7 9:34Profile





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