| Re: Penticostal vs holiness|
Thank you for your prayer, advice and references. I appreciate them all, and will look into them tonight/soon. I have one more question. How do you understand praying and singing in the Spirit.
| 2012/2/7 10:40||Profile|
| Re: |
I have looked through the sermons of Zac Poonan and you are right. He gives a different impression in his testimony. This is quite common. Some have read holiness writers in the past and some of what they say comes from them but when you get down to it there is that vital difference in what happens at Baptism of the Spirit. He is not a holiness teacher - he does not believe that we can be without sin in this life which is what holiness doctrine is. What he is saying is a sort of modified Keswick version. Now I understand why holiness people dont stick around here.
Why do you think that God does not warn us before we sin (unconsciously)? He lights my path so that I do not have to be ignorant of what displeases Him. It does not take long for us to learn what our marriage partner does not like.
I dont have all the answers but I do know what God did for me and many others who preached holiness in the Lord as the result of the second blessing or baptism of the Spirit. Zac Poonan is not one of them and because he misses out the cross, he cannot include the crown.
| 2012/2/7 12:05|
| Re: |
I understand praying and singing in the Spirit to mean that one is being led entirely by the Holy Spirit in these exercises. When one is walking in the light then one can express oneself easily and clearly in ones praises. No need for indecipherable words that could easily be cursing.
| 2012/2/7 12:08|
| Re: |
Why do you think that God does not warn us before we sin (unconsciously)?
Good question. Sanctification is a gradual process. Taking my life example, when I as a believer was struggling with speaking low of others, how will it benefit me if the Holy Spirit shows me that I should not even think low of others? Only when I overcome one I will be revealed next. It is like a Kid has to pass 1st grade for it to take the lessons of 2nd grade. What will happen if we give the lessons from 1st to 10th Grade at a stretch and then expect the kid to pass all at 1 time? The kid will lose interest and will be heavily discouraged. It is like feeding solid food to a new born baby which will kill the baby.
Also look into nature created by God, every growth happens progressively and that is why it is strong. For a plant grows slowly and it becomes tree and then bears fruits. If the seed becomes a tree with fruit directly then will the tree be strong? will it not break? A strong foundation is made by digging deep with lots of effort.
God wants us all to be in the image of Jesus and it is his promise, we are all in this process including those who preach. But we might be in different stages in this process.
Now it is not wrong for a kid to be in 1st grade, but what if the kid sits in 1st grade for 40 years? will his father be happy with him? Same way more than 99% of Christians today have their christian life standstill because the do not know this truth. They are happy that they are in school but there is no improvement.
| 2012/2/7 12:34||Profile|
| Re: |
They are not willing to see if the Holiness teachers of old were actually right on this one, and the evidence is that they do not have the witness of entering His rest and living without sin.
The doctrine that you are referring to here is the false teaching of sinless perfection. It was a major stumbling block to John Wesley, in fact it was the core of the falling out between George Whitfield and John & Charles. Later Charles was reconciled to George but he never was with John.
If you believe that you are without sin, you are deceiving yourself:
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." -1 John 1:8
No one has 'entered' this state, except Jesus himself. The 'holy people of old' never entered into this sinless state either because it's unattainable in the flesh. Furthermore these 'holy people of old' are not our examples, we have one example, His name is Jesus Christ.
The good news for us is that we all fall short of this and He is merciful.
| 2012/2/7 12:52||Profile|
Berthoud, Colorado, USA
| 2012/2/7 18:48||Profile|
| Re: |
I'm sure your dad is used to worse than this :-)
And then there is the testimony of having observed Zac's personal life closely for many years; but I won't speak on that.
Who else could attest better, save sister Annie? lol
| 2012/2/7 19:03||Profile|
| Re: |
Hi SPoonen, Can't believe you are here. We have met in Bangalore Conference. I am from Atlanta CFC. Nice to see you here.
| 2012/2/7 22:57||Profile|
| Re: |
With respect, this thread is about Zac Poonan, and I would like to concentrate on a discussion concerning this brother, and not have it railroaded by talking about me and my experience of life in the Spirit. If you wish to have a discussion about sinless perfection, than I suggest that you start a new thread, and it would be helpful if you specify exactly what you mean by this term as it does not necessarily mean the same thing today as it did in the past, it is grossly misunderstood.
I am preparing a reply at present on what has been said about our brother Poonan and may or may not have enough time yet to get into a discussion about holiness doctrine but I will endeavour to do so if I am led.
| 2012/2/8 3:50|
| Re: |
Thank you for your contribution, and the very helpful links about Zac Poonan. I would like to say that I am in no way `attacking` Zac Poonan, but I have some observations about him and his teaching which I will either put on here or write to him privately, whichever you would prefer.
| 2012/2/8 4:06|