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pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Sree,

Do you think Holy means sinless?

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

These men were not sinless.

Is Peter talking about the Church here or just a few select Christians?

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Quote:
I am sure Brother Zac has a clear conscience like Paul. Even I achieve it many days. But that does not mean I am holy.



Don't you see how dangerous it is to keep likening Zac to Paul or John?

Quote:
If Brother Zac starts sharing such sins that the holy Spirit has revealed to him then we will all be so discouraged because we have been committing them unknowingly everyday and we are so far behind to reaching it. It will be like a PHD student sharing his question paper to a 3rd grade student. Even the men whom you think have had complete victory they will also be discouraged by Zac's standard.

For example once he said 'he considers even entertaining the thought that another women cooks better than his wife is adultery'. How many of us have such a high standard? This is God's standard for us, and we will get there as long as we keep walking in the Spirit keeping a clear conscience.

What I am trying to say here is Zac is in the process of Sanctification like how Paul, John and other men of God were on this earth.



To say such things about a brother is to do them a great disservice and elevate them higher than I think they would want. We should not want to be elevated at all. We must decrease and He must increase.

Pilgrim

 2012/2/6 18:57Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1755


 Re:

Quote:

Do you think Holy means sinless?


Dictionary meaning of Holy is -having a spiritually pure quality. There is no clear meaning to Holy. Bible uses it in most places as -'to be set apart, unique'. Which means we are not walking in the ways of the world but in the way of God(Romans 12-1). I have used it here as being Perfect. As long as you understand what I meant by holy, I am fine.

Quote:
Don't you see how dangerous it is to keep likening Zac to Paul or John?



What is dangerous here? What makes you feel we are different from Paul? Paul and John are also sinners who were saved by the grace of God. I did not compare anyone to Jesus. If I did you can accuse me.
Brother this is what I am trying to prove here, we can also be like any other men of New Testament. There is nothing preventing us other than our unbelief.
What I explained there is Paul's standard might be very higher than you, me and even Zac but that does not mean that we cannot reach that standard. If Paul can have clear conscience then why can't I have.

Quote:
To say such things about a brother is to do them a great disservice and elevate them higher than I think they would want. We should not want to be elevated at all. We must decrease and He must increase.



Obviously Brother Zac does not want anyone to think highly of himself, just like any Christian should be. This does not mean that we should not look up to him. I look up to him. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. So if you look up to Paul and share it with others, is it wrong? I know he (Zac) has higher standard based on what I witnessed in his life and in his teachings. I shared it here. I did not say that he became like Jesus or that he is the most perfect man in world etc. I just said his standard is much higher.

Again you may not agree with me and think that you have got all the answers. I have responded to every single thing that you posted. If you seriously have any questions to be answered then please post. If you think you already have an answer then I don't have time to argue. Thanks for your post.


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Sreeram

 2012/2/6 19:48Profile
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Quote:
Even the men whom you think have had complete victory they will also be discouraged by Zac's standard.

For example once he said 'he considers even entertaining the thought that another women cooks better than his wife is adultery'. How many of us have such a high standard? This is God's standard for us, and we will get there as long as we keep walking in the Spirit keeping a clear conscience.



I can certainly see why many are in awe of Zac. I must admit that is quite a high standard. My cooking would definitely make others sin (hope it did not). Fortunately, my wife's cooking is very good or according to this standard I might be in serious trouble.

But then you say "this is God's standard for us". Is that true? I have never thought that if I considered another wife cooked better than my wife that it would be considered adultery.

Certainly, there must be a way to compliment the cooking of a brother's wife without going over the line. You can simply say, "Your lasagna was very good". And then your wife can always ask for the recipe.

When I think of the standard of Jesus, I think of grace through faith. I think of love, mercy, forgiveness, holiness, gentleness and meekness.

Your thoughts are most welcome, but the standard of Jesus seems more attainable to me, for I have already violated Zac's. I do know some women that cook better than my wife, even though her cooking is excellent.

Blessings,
Pilgrim

 2012/2/6 21:41Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1755


 Re:

Quote:

But then you say "this is God's standard for us". Is that true? I have never thought that if I considered another wife cooked better than my wife that it would be considered adultery.



Pilgrim, I hope you had nice fun.
The Pharisees might have laughed when Jesus said getting angry at your brother is equivalent to murdering your brother (Matthew 5). How else will these men who did not repent for killing Prophets will react to anger? But that does not mean what Jesus said is not truth.
Indeed it is God's standard and I am answering you assuming you want to know the answer. Jesus said if you lust after another women you already committed adultery. So if you admire another women's body you have already committed adultery. How different it is if you admire another women's cooking skills and think it is better than what God has provided for you?

You are again agreeing on my point that there are unconscious sins in our life. The more we walk with Spirit we will get to know the unconscious sins in our life and become more like Jesus.
I am not here defending Zac, my point is that one does not need to be perfect to teach Holiness. We are all being perfected and will be perfect one day when Jesus returns. I want to end it here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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Sreeram

 2012/2/6 23:05Profile
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:



Thanks for sharing your thoughts, too.

Pilgrim

 2012/2/6 23:24Profile









 Re:

Sree

My version does not say that. Paul is merely saying that he is not just by his own judgement. That does not mean that he still sins, it means that God makes him just and pronounces it.

Saying we sin unconciously is against the witness of the scripture which says that He keeps us from falling Jude 23. The Holy Spirit within enables us to avoid sin.

Zac Poonan does not preach gradual sanctification, he preaches the second blessing and if you who have heard him apparently on countless occasions, do not hear his message then it is pointless for me to get into a debate about holiness doctrine as your mind is obviously closed to it.

As Zac has not yet entered into the state of holiness, his understanding of it is rather coloured by his own thoughts. What he says sounds like a high standard but it is not - it is just silliness. He does not have to tell his wife though, but to deny a fact is lying. Why should his taste buds be the same as his wifes?

Speaking in foreign languages was allowed and still is.

 2012/2/7 9:16
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

And if you admire someone else's cooking you are now accused of being discontented "with what God has provided you".

I did not know that "admiring" a quality or trait or gift in someone else was a sin?

 2012/2/7 9:20Profile
Theophila
Member



Joined: 2007/1/15
Posts: 365


 Re: Who is Zac Poonen?

Dear Father,
Thank you for the price that was necessary to purchase all of your children. From my human view, it wasn't easy, I do not fully understand it, but thank You!
Thank You, also, for raising up brother Zac Poonen to preach Your Word. Thank You for your faithful servants the world over. Please uphold them by Your victorious right hand. Please protect them from the strivings of men, from the scourge of the tongues of men. Encourage their hearts when the going gets tough.
Would You also open their eyes to spiritual reality as You see it?

Please Father, help all of us, Your children, to be about the things that really matter. L
Thank You, Father, I ask these things in the name of Jesus, of Nazareth. Amen.


_________________
Tolu

 2012/2/7 10:04Profile
sam09
Member



Joined: 2009/9/4
Posts: 20
UK

 Re:

Amen to your prayer, Theophila.


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Sam

 2012/2/7 10:24Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1755


 Re:

Quote:

Zac Poonan does not preach gradual sanctification



I am not saying I have heard all his sermons. But based on what I have heard he teaches Gradual Sanctification. Please read his book on -'Good Foundation'. He explains the 3 steps in Salvation clearly. The example I quoted comparing the Grade of Student to Growth in Christ was actually taken from him. Even Paul agrees there are different standard among believers that is why he says some can take only Milk and some take solid food. The standard I quoted earlier is a solid food and it cannot be had by all.

Quote:
Saying we sin unconciously is against the witness of the scripture which says that He keeps us from falling Jude 23



No it is not. Then 1 John 1-8 is also contradicting to Jude 24. 1 John 1-8 says that "If we (believers) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
See Jude 24 talks about Stumbling. Stumbling is different from falling. Anyways Stumbling means committing a Sin that you know is a Sin which is Conscious sin. God protects us from that by the Power of Holy Spirit. John 1-8 talks about unconscious sin, though God protects us from conscious sin and helps us to have clear conscience towards him, it does not mean that we are sinless. We still need blood of Jesus for God not to look at our unconscious sin.

For example when I came to Christ from Hindu background I knew that talking low of someone is Pride. Once I overcame that by the power of Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit revealed to me that even if I entertain the thought that I am superior to another person in any area say education or athleticism, money, power etc, I have pride in my heart. Because Bible says that -'all I have is received from God'. Now I have to overcome that by his power. God gives power but I should be seeking his power to give up that attitude of Pride. This is growth in Christ. I am just giving you an example with Pride as sin. There are so many areas and we need to be Christlike in all these areas.

So when I stopped talking low of others my conscience might be clear that I have not sinned but that does not mean that I became Perfect and sinless. I have sins but I am unware of it. Once the Holy Spirit makes me aware of it I immediately seek to overcome that and repent as explained in 1 John 9.

See if you do not want to agree on unconscious sin then it is fine with me, you posted a question and I responded with another scripture and explained the answer. Lets stop here, I do not want to argue as I find Christ will never argue with someone who believes he has all the answers. Jesus did not speak a word to Herod, because he knew that Herod was not truly seeking an answer.


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Sreeram

 2012/2/7 10:35Profile





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