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Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Will you leave me, too?

I can remember back to the time in my life, many years ago, when I lived in Christian City. I was a "Christian". I was always in church, prophesying,singing, looking the part, yet inwardly I was dying. Finally, instead of following God into death, I left my husband and all that behind to go my own way. At that point, I became even more miserable. I was working with some extrememly ungodly people who saw my misery. Finally, one day, a very ungodly man said to me, "if you believe all that stuff you talk about, why don't you just live like you do?" It was as if God had slapped me. From that moment on, I began to strive with all of my being to become Real. Now, 8 years later, I'm free of my suicidal depression. I've found something solid which I can stand on. There is a surety in my heart of what I believe.

Today, as I pondered on these things, I was musing over why I still feel somewhat depressed. I feel alone and terribly unfulfilled. I had a great dawning in my heart. Before, I was suicidal because I hadn't settled what I believed in my own heart. Now, I'm not suicidal but I'm struggling to find rest and peace. I'm very restless. So much so, that I'm up in the middle of the night writing this. But...I had a "revelation", if you will. I'm coming to know something so real and so true; of that I am sure, but it has terrified me. The truth has left me completely stupified. Before, back in Christian City, I tried to be a witness for Jesus Christ and it was such a joke. How can you give someone something you don't have for yourself? But now, I realize that the true gospel is so offensive that hardly anyone will receive it.

I have received it with great joy, finally, but when you begin to share the truth, you find yourself in a very small minority. So, this is my "revelation": All my life I believed that Jesus came to give me a wonderful life. I believed that if I could just become a good Christian witness, I would be someone that the whole world would run to in order to be get what I had to offer. Now, I've come to know the truth. Jesus came to make a way for me to return to God, and if I should choose it, I must abandon my life. I must humble myself in repentance and turn away from this world. I must love him and reject the offer of this world for all the "life" here. It has left me feeling alone in a different kind of way. The folks in Christian City don't want you anymore. The folks out in the world probably don't want you either. The only folks who can embrace you are those who know the truth.

This is the bottom line: the reality of abandonment has left me speechless and momentarily parylized. Actually, I'm in shock. I've realized...I'm all alone with Jesus. Well, not totally alone but it feels that way much of the time. Now, I'm at a new crossroad. Before, I needed to seek God and settle for myself if I was going to believe him. It seems I am at a new level of challenge. Almost like one of those video games. Please don't laugh, but you know how you beat the game on level 1 and then you start again on level 2 and so on? God has issued me a new challenge. Will you follow me even if it means you are all alone? Will you follow me even if it means that you will be killed for following me? Will you follow me even if the world hates you? Will you follow me even if the religious community hates you? You know, I've realized that you cannot possibly follow Jesus like this unless you have settled, without a shadow of a doubt, what you believe. If there is one little bit of doubt left in you, you will faint when the going gets rough. This is where I am. I have to settle some things, once again. There is a wrestling going on inside me. I'm can hardly believe what God is asking me to do. I'm shocked and speechless. But...where else can I go? No one else has the words of life. Love, Dian.

 2005/1/23 0:54Profile
DezCall
Member



Joined: 2004/7/9
Posts: 315
The Netherlands

 Re: Will you leave me, too?

Quote:
I've realized that you cannot possibly follow Jesus like this unless you have settled, without a shadow of a doubt, what you believe



You're absolutely right. Theology will not keep us standing. "Eating" sermon after sermon will not keep us standing. Even the revelations God gives us, when we read the Bible, will not keep us standing. Only reality can.

This is something which is keeping me busy lately. We should never in our life settle for less than God wants to give us...and that is: mere reality! I don't want to write any nice, fitting and biblical article about e.g. the faithfulness of Joseph in Egypt, except it be(com)ing reality in my own walk with God. Joseph was trusting and serving God for approximately 13 years in an unjustly situation, being a slave and imprisoned. Whojo...I even have trouble being faithfull to God, when I don't [b]feel[/b] all to well. But, the truth is..God is able to keep us faithfull. And the thing we should settle for is: Lord, make me faithfull!

Well, you could sum it up with this:
[b]Sick of theology...I just want Jesus[/b] (and Chanin, if you're reading this, just give a smile :-), I picked this one up from your site...great blessing)

Quote:
I've realized...I'm all alone with Jesus



You know what? That's the best place you can possibly be. Oswald Chambers writes:

"Our solitude with Him. Jesus doesn't take us aside and explain things to us all the time; He explains things to use as we are able to understand them. The lives of others are examples for us, but God requires to examine our own souls. It is slow work - so slow that it takes God all of time and eternity to make a man or woman conform to His purpose. We can only be used by God after we allow Him to show us the deep, hidden areas of our own character. It is astounding how ignorant we are about ourselves...

If we have ever had a glimpse of what we are like in the sight of God, we will never say, "Oh, I'm so unworthy." [b]We will understand that this goes without saying[/b]. But as long as there is any doubt that we are unworthy, God will continue to close us in until He gets us alone."

Some time ago you started a thread with the title "confused". I find myself in confusion many times. But confusion in itself is not a bad thing. It drives us closer to the heart of Jesus. It has driven me (and it most certainly needs to do it again and again) to the point where I said: GOD, GIVE ME REALITY! In those moments, everything becomes so "simple" again. Very weird actually.

You know what I think? We can fool ourselves with writing very beautiful words. We can fool ourselves by praying marvellous, godly prayers. God didn't intend to make us theologists (in the way of: headknowledge only!), He wanted to be "a [b]present[/b] help in time of need" (Psalm 46:1). He wanted us to be people "who [b]know[/b] their God" (Daniel 11:32).

"For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh...Therefore, we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day." (2 Cor 4:11,16 - KJV and some Dutch to English translated piece of text ;-))

The costs we pay for following Jesus, aren't without a reward. The life of Jesus being made manifest in our flesh, and through that, the life of Jesus being made manifest in the lives of others.

Quote:
The only folks who can embrace you are those who know the truth



Hmmm...I'm by no means perfect and I even doubt if I'm always really willing to walk in the light, to obey the truth of God...but that be said, it's my hearts desire. So sister: give me hug :-P

Yours in Christ,

Paul


_________________
Paul

 2005/1/23 9:28Profile
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

It is my priviledge to give you a hug, Paul. Perhaps someday I will do it in person. I can see you growing by leaps and bounds. That is some grand godly wisdom. Thank you, Friend. I love you. Dian.

 2005/1/23 9:58Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: :)

Paul,

:-) I am glad at this moment that i can be of good use to someone.

Confusion- I just came out of a place like this and now am back in it because of another major trial. I have to have faith that Jesus is just wanting to show me Himself more clearly through all of this.

In Him, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/1/23 10:51Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Will you leave me, too?

Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as his own life, he can't be my disciple.

Some commentary to follow.

Dear Dian,

You are a saint.

Quote:
From that moment on, I began to strive with all of my being to become Real.


Yes! A thousand times yes!
Had the same revelation in the midst of being caught up in so much twisted truth. Amazing how much we can purposefully suppress or at the least not want to listen to because the suspicion is, what if it is true? Then what? Think that is what is so utterly damaging about an easy believism. It keeps one from truly examining their heart. Will always be grateful to those few voices, those so called 'negative, critical, denouncers' of the non-sense that is passing for 'Christianity' these days. They touched the nerve of what I had to suppress to keep up with my little Pollyanna world of prosperity and self fulfilled happiness.
Quote:
I tried to be a witness for Jesus Christ and it was such a joke. How can you give someone something you don't have for yourself? But now, I realize that the true gospel is so offensive that hardly anyone will receive it.


With you there and that is the way it will always be, more so in our day. It also makes it doubly damning when the world that is hurting looks to our modern day 'gospel' and laughs at the ridiculousness. It's often the equivalent of just another fad diet, another self-help program. On the flip side it just seems that the world has turned so hard into 2 Tim 3, that they could care less...death is so far off...'I'm a good person'.
But the selected text denominations of our time, those may be the hardest to reach...it's like flunking High School and realizing you were in all the wrong classes.
Quote:
I must humble myself in repentance and turn away from this world. I must love him and reject the offer of this world for all the "life" here. It has left me feeling alone in a different kind of way. The folks in Christian City don't want you anymore. The folks out in the world probably don't want you either. The only folks who can embrace you are those who know the truth.


And thank God, you are here. 2Co 11:16 [i]I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.[/i]
For all that we cannot do here I will never tire of boasting that this is more than just 'some website'. It is not a means unto itself, but I don't know of anywhere else where this convergence of hearts is expressed. I will be even more redundant. The day I first clicked on this site... Goldmine! Felt like I had just opened up the door to reality, to what I had been searching so long for. Truth! And I also knew it was going to be painful at times having to wrestle with those long suppressed areas, but I didn't care, I just had to understand just what was going on inside of me. Can remember it like it was yesterday..."Oh my!, Oh my!...Thank you Lord. Before I knew the half of it all these hearts after the Lord in Spirit and Truth began to gather, from all over the world, with much knowledge and experience, with a willingness to help and share not to force each other into a denominational box, but to grow and strive and press on in the Lord. It's what has kept me here rambling on and on, making a fool out of myself...I just want to try and give back from all the incredible things I have gained from all of you, from the messages.

Sorry for the digress. But you are much embraced here Dian and I do understand what you talk of in that sense of 'abandonment' and just as surely as you already realize am confident that it will subside more and more until a different order will come into play, not just in your head but inwardly. The difficulty of that verse in Luke is manifold, but I believe that as the Lord changes our hearts it gets revealed in a different way than we might expect. Sometimes it seems we can try and force our minds into trying to live up to the things we read in scripture and we should without a doubt. But it is the Lord that changes us on His timetable as we cooperate with what He wants to do. I don't fully understand it, it's often that backward glance, sometimes it's right in the middle of it all, that revelation that life has changed...[i]inwardly[/i],...[i]again![/i] Praise God!

I do 'hate' this world in the gigantic sense that it's all WRONG! It groans under the weight of it's own sin. All of it's 'happiness' is stained, it is never truly 'true'. These bodies we live in, no wonder ... 2Co 5:4 [i]For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened--not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.[/i]
Quote:
God has issued me a new challenge. Will you follow me even if it means you are all alone? Will you follow me even if it means that you will be killed for following me? Will you follow me even if the world hates you? Will you follow me even if the religious community hates you? You know, I've realized that you cannot possibly follow Jesus like this unless you have settled, without a shadow of a doubt, what you believe. If there is one little bit of doubt left in you, you will faint when the going gets rough. This is where I am. I have to settle some things, once again. There is a wrestling going on inside me. I'm can hardly believe what God is asking me to do. I'm shocked and speechless. But...where else can I go? No one else has the words of life.


Oh, the struggle of Paul again...Tried to snatch just a couple of verse's here and couldn't get around backtracking...

"I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

"For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

"What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,
for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death.

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again. Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have."

Phi 1:3-6, 8-11 and 18-30.

My, this getting much longer than I had thought. May you be encouraged from whatever you can glean out of all this sister. To give a trite, shallow, glib, surface level...response, to what God is asking of you, of me, of all of us... The rambler is struggling here... If there is any parallel experience ahead for you, will just say that it is a blessed re-arrangement. I don't understand it, it's just ...[i]changed[/i]. My prayers as always, for you, for all that traverse through here.

The promised commentary:

[b]Luk 14:26 - If any man come to me,[/b].... Not in a corporeal, but in a spiritual way; nor barely to hear him preach; but so come, as that he believes in him, applies to him for grace, pardon, righteousness, life, and salvation; professes to be his, submits to his ordinances, and desires to be a disciple of his;

[b]and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple:[/b] not that proper hatred of any, or all of these, is enjoined by Christ; for this would be contrary to the laws of God, to the first principles of nature, to all humanity, to the light of nature, to reason and divine revelation: but that these are not to be preferred to Christ, or loved more than he, as it is explained in Mat_10:37 yea, these are to be neglected and forsaken, and turned from with indignation and resentment, when they stand in the way of the honour and interest of Christ, and dissuade from his service: such who would be accounted the disciples of Christ, should be ready to part with their dearest relations and friends, with the greatest enjoyment of life, and with life itself, when Christ calls for it; or otherwise they are not worthy to be called his disciples. The Ethiopic version inserts, "his house", into the account.

Gill's commentary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The sense that we know this seems a bit like preaching to the choir and felt a bit at odds even with part of Mr. Gill's .."[i]with indignation and resentment[/i]" it hearkens back to the Amy Carmichael, "[b][i]If[/i][/b] I can rebuke without a pang..." There seems to be a subtle line that could only be brought about dependent on the situation. Have seen enough wronged headed 'hatred' from Christians under the cloak of this verse as well as the opposite cowering to compromise..."Well, what is really meant here...."

Maybe if we were to take the last part first, "his own life" and start there, the rest would get put in it's proper perspective.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/1/23 12:09Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Sick of theology...I just want Jesus



Certainly understand the sentiment here, especially as an 'either/or' as opposed to a 'both/and' construct.

Ye old Websters to the rescue again:

[b]Theology
THEOL'OGY, n.[/b] [Gr. God, and discourse.] Divinity; the science of God and divine things; or the science which teaches the existence, character and attributes of God, his laws and government, the doctrines we are to believe,and the duties we are to practice. Theology consists of two branches, [b]natural and revealed[/b]. Natural theology is the knowledge we have of God from his works, by the light of nature and reason. Revealed theology is that which is to be learned only from revelation.

Moral theology, teaches us the divine laws relating to our manners and actions, that is, our moral duties.theology, teaches or explains the doctrines of religion, as objects of faith.

Scholastic theology, is that which proceeds by reasoning, or which derives the knowledge of several divine things from certain established principles of faith.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Personally, I like "both" or better yet...
[b]ALL[/b]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/1/23 13:41Profile









 Dear Dian

That was wonderful bit of prophesy, and I thank you for sharing it.
Love, Neil

 2005/1/23 17:19
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re: Dear Dian

Paul wrote of Elijah:

Rom. 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Read through the Psalms, David's heart cries from the same place as you. But know this, you are living in the living word of Scripture, rejoice in the treasure that lies before you. Not many today know "The Life," the Scripture teaches of.

God Bless
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/24 14:37Profile





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