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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Contending for the Faith; False Doctrines murder the Lambs.

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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Amen; Thank-you Roadsign ...but have you ever considered FEAR as a good thing?, a necessary thing? THE FEAR OF THE LORD IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM!


Brothertom, You have keen eyesight! You raise a a pertinent point.

I realize you know I am using fear in this context, “The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid” Heb. 13:6. Still, fear of God is a good starting place for this entire topic of confrontation. After all, ungodly fear (ie lack of God-fear) really does obstruct effectiveness. It produces the typical knee-jerk fight-or-flight response: attack or run (both which can be masterfully disguised by fine sounding spiritual language).

I handle the Fear of God here: http://www.quiteexcellent.com/thewayback.net/articles/FEARINGGOD/title.htm

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/1/28 6:59Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: On Dealing with Church Dictators

The epistle of 3 John is too good to pass over! Here we have a brilliant prescription for a common contemporary problem: Dictatorial leadership.

Quote:
9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. 10 So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
11 Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God. 12 Demetrius is well spoken of by everyone—and even by the truth itself. We also speak well of him, and you know that our testimony is true.


It appears that Diotrephes has positioned himself between John and the church. He has somehow gained enough power in this church to actually keep believers out and to turf out members who wish to welcome them. He’s now trying to keep John away.

How did this church get into such a predicament? We don’t see any background information in this letter … or maybe we do! Diotrephes is using malicious gossip. We all know how horribly this can undermine someone’s ministry. Wesley did this to Whitefield, causing serious damage to Whitefield’s reputation in England. Whitefield was off in America preaching to the thousands, while Wesley was in England, spreading slanderous rumors about Whitefield’s "heresies". Whitefield returned to England to discover that he had lost his audience, thanks to Wesley. BTW, it was Whitefield who helped get Wesley’s ministry off the ground. Wesley later repented and came to highly esteem Whitefield. Spurgeon also found himself shunned – because he took a stand against slavery, or more accurately, because of malicious slander that ensued. The Americans stopped buying his sermons; and thus (for a time) Spurgeon lost this source of funding for the orphanage.

Diotrephes could never have attained such power in the church without the people themselves somehow enabling it. These are a caring people. (:8) Yet it seems that they were being snookered through his gossip and his intimidation. Meanwhile John is not around to defend himself and maintain the people’s trust. And isn’t this just how gossip works: Two parties talk about a third party who is not in their presence. Gossip seems to be the one “sanctified” sin that goes unchecked. And then by the time divisiveness get noticeably problematic, people typically try all the wrong ways of dealing with it.

John did not have our modern-day problem solving theories and our conflict management tools. But neither was he shaped by our modern individualistic or professional paradigms. He did not do what we typically do: cocoon the “problem” person. His letter to Gaius, in itself, points to how he addresses the problem. The people needed to see the gossip for what it was: malicious nonsense. Perhaps they did not think of it that way. They also needed to pull their eyes away from this compelling evil energy. You know how certain problematic individuals can captivate everyone’s attention. [ Why is there such a powerful fleshly inclination to focus on the troublesome person? :-| ]

John knows he himself can’t fix the problem, and he won’t fix it simply by having a firm chat with the culprit. (Remember, John is not shaped by professionalism like we are) The entire congregation must be responsible and use their intelligence, just as Gaius was warned: Do not be like Diotrephes. Think! Pay attention! Notice what’s good! Discern! Choose godly models! Take responsibility for your spiritual maturity!

We can remember the prophetic promise of God’s solution for bad shepherds: “I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. “I will rescue them…. I will pasture them… I will tend my sheep…” Ez. 34 God’s solution is himself – through salvation in Christ. And apprehending his provision is every person’s responsibility – in every context of life.

Someone noted that if the laity would take more responsibility for their spiritual maturation, they will be able to hold their leaders more accountable, and then clergy people would not get away with their slothfulness - and (I might add) their dictatorial tendencies.


PS this still needs revision! My apologies.

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2012/1/28 8:38Profile









 Re:

The Single Pastor.

There is only one place in the entire New Testament where the leadership of a Church is consigned to ONE MAN, and that is 3John; and this one is identified as a Heretic, a divider...[ who loves the preeminence. ]

Each and every other mention of Pastor is in the plural; an unprofessional, unpaid, wotking class of shepherds. There was never one man given authority over a church; never.

Meditate on this a bit considering the system we live in and consider how far we have fallen. Add in the unscriptural tithe, that keeps the gears slicked to operate this system, and the bulding that alienates the body to accept a drone/pew class as the norm....to elevate a Priest/Minister class as the norm, and behold! the destruction of all Spirit infused body life.

The Church is designed so that we need the least of the sisters and brothers, that we and they may be fed, edified, and each member honored equally. Each one of us has gifting, testimony and faith...and are meant to give that in body life and community life...and until we do, the Spirit will be quenched.

 2012/1/28 18:32









 Re: Thats why i love you Diane

Quote:
When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon."....Martin Luther



I appreciate you posting this quote from Luther. It may help explain what happened to Luther. Through all the resistance he encountered, he himself became bitter and hostile. You can see that in some of his writings. When the Jews did not listen to him he permitted them to be persecuted and murdered. He refused to compromise with Zwingli regarding the Eucharist, and insisted on consubstantiation as the only right way (that is, the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist). That divided the entire reformation movement. Zwingli himself, in his zeal to expunge a dangerous heresy had some believers drowned. What was the dangerous heresy: believer’s baptism. And the reformation went downhill from there – all in the name of confronting false doctrine.

Quote:
Do we confront the lie?...or do we tolerate it and let it spread?



This is a frightening philosophy to hold! The mission to “confront” has no breaks when it is driven by fear and a sense of righteousness – and when mercy and love are no longer restraints. And the wheat gets damaged even as the tares are being plucked out.

God is quite able to manage evil. That is his job. We have our own job.

Having said that, I admit, even last Sunday I shared a theological concern with a minister whose trust I had gained through the last ten years. Had I been "confrontational" I would have lost more ground then I may have gained.


Diane


-----------------------------------------------------

Diane 'roadsign' wrote the above.
because only God the Holy Spirit could have revealed such to you Diane, and it carries with it, the Sweet Truth of Christ.

i dont think a lot of believers, Gentile, can really apprehend the damage Luther did, to us Jews, and the ministry of outreach TO Jews. (definitely the roman institution played a hideous earlier role, Luther just gave it that PUSH)..."On Jews and Their Lies"?...which btw was used a perverted demonic "covering" by hitler and his minions.

what in God's Name has happened to this forum?

there is just so much confusion, and anger, and diviseness. i must be either stupid, or desperate, or loyal, but i keep coming back, looking for fruit, for sweet fellowship, and i have been blessed with such in the past.

the many hours, Brother Frank appolus and i have spent on the phone, praying talking, getting to know one another, Mike Compton, a brother dear to my heart, the same thing.

and it just seems like everything is so fear based and strident, talking about 'wolves' and the 'enemy', as if they are the Big Deal...its almost like testifying and focusing on the dark power of the devil, whilst ignoring the King of Kings, Jesus, and His Glory and Beauty, and Majesty.

Instead, foolishly, we muck about with this doctrine and that doctrine, lambast and argue over the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, or the all too familar "KJV only" cyber scrum, and lest we forget, the ever present "DIVORCE/REMARRIAGE" mud pit to wallow in.

what happened to REVIVAL?

can we answer that?

or we shedding tears over this, are we tarrying on our knees late into the night, asking God to come down in Power, Love and Mercy?

what happened to Revival?...personal....community, or district?

lets consider our ways, please.....bring dry wood, it burns better.

 2012/1/28 19:57
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

BrotherTom, appreciate your reply to my post and agree with you in many respects.

HezWelling, good word of exhortation which I needed to hear. Thanks. May God have mercy on me and us.


_________________
Oracio

 2012/1/28 22:11Profile









 Re:

Brother Neil writes........

"its almost like testifying and focusing on the dark power of the devil, whilst ignoring the King of Kings, Jesus, and His Glory and Beauty, and Majesty."

Amen brother, its a terrible mistake to give our enemny too much air time. Its the Truth that sets men free. Its the Light of Christ that dispels the darkness. Stand in the light, walk in the Truth, and all the troubles of the world will come to you, you will never have to go looking for it. There is a spiritual battle and the darkness detests the light. The enemy could care less for shades of grey. If we could study all the little groups for the last 2000 years who have stood outside of religion, it was they who were hunted down and killed as they tried to live peacably amongst men. Thier life and the Truth attracted others too them, much like the early church who were observed to be loving one another and living exemplary lives. This would bring down the wrath of the spirit behind religion.

Shall we curse the darkness? Is their such a ministry that curses the darkness? To simply walk in the light of Christ and to speak the truth in love will bring upon us the persecution that is written off....... bro Frank

 2012/1/29 0:18
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Thank you Neil for your expressive post. I’ve grabbed up a few of your thoughts – for reflection:

Quote:
fear based and strident


Recently my minster said, “The biggest spiritual force of evil is FEAR.” She has a point – because, really fear is the opposite of faith. Our worst danger is unbelief. It causes us to hurt one another. And so exposure of our latent anxieties and any symptoms of faltering faith, even here in our dialogues, have an upside. It’s the stuff God uses to stir us towards brokenness – and a new vibrant FAITH. And isn’t that what we want!

Quote:
what happened to REVIVAL?


Surely God is working to prepare soil. Maybe our problem is that we have not learned how to wait. We expect evidence of the ideals ASAP. Surely the “messiness” we see is designed right into God’s grand plan. Let’s admit, people, societies and civilizations are much more complex than the Four Spiritual Laws. And God plays a far bigger field than we can see.


Quote:
bring dry wood, it burns better



I know where there’s dry wood. My daughter visited a church in Toronto back when she was looking for one. This was a United Church near her place. She quickly realized that this was predominantly a small group of gays. Her description of them made me envision them as huddling together, scrambling for some sense of meaning and belonging – some epiphany of God. My daughter said, “The walls were covered with posters about gays.” Even the sermon sounded like a grasping at straws. The real “message” in that place, was maybe this: “Here we are, lost and confused, trying to make life work.. …. Can God ever really love us?”

These are some of our society’s starving people. And isn’t that where Jesus goes – to those who have little left. It’s where the wood is dead and dry enough to ignite. For many of us here, by contrast, we are well-watered with our well-developed theologies, bible knowledge, habits, and sense of righteousness.


Quote:
the damage Luther did, to us Jews,



Coming to terms with this great contender of the faith is challenging. He had outstanding qualities, like his own spiritual conversion and his brilliant theological writings. Yet he had a dark side. I believe he was a tragic victim of his own world, not just his own doing. Luther exposes the best and the worst of human nature, personally and societally. He himself has been both deified and demonized, but neither is honest or helpful. After doing a project on Luther, I have come to believe that, beneath all the surface stuff, the stuff that gets the attention, we see a man who shares the same human nature as we do. We too have dreams and expectations. And we too can get bitter when our ideals fail to materialize. If Luther, who was one of the most truly repentant sinner and recipient of God’s grace could become so bitter and cruel to fellow humanity – who are we to assume we can escape that possibility – given enough stress.

Our challenge I believe, Jew or Gentile, is to forgive Luther - not to excuse his wrongs, but to prevent damage to ourselves and others. I believe we can forgive him only if we see that we too have the same capacity to do evil against others, even in our pursuit against evil.

By recognizing Luther’s sins for what they are, and by forgiving Luther, I believe, we will preserve truthfulness about ourselves, God’s word about human nature, and the blessed gift of divine grace.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/1/29 17:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Coming to terms with this great contender of the faith is challenging. He had outstanding qualities, like his own spiritual conversion and his brilliant theological writings. Yet he had a dark side. I believe he was a tragic victim of his own world, not just his own doing. Luther exposes the best and the worst of human nature, personally and societally. He himself has been both deified and demonized, but neither is honest or helpful. After doing a project on Luther, I have come to believe that, beneath all the surface stuff, the stuff that gets the attention, we see a man who shares the same human nature as we do. We too have dreams and expectations. And we too can get bitter when our ideals fail to materialize. If Luther, who was one of the most truly repentant sinner and recipient of God’s grace could become so bitter and cruel to fellow humanity – who are we to assume we can escape that possibility – given enough stress.



It doesn't even take much stress, there is a Hitler nature resident in even the very best of redeemed men, only the grace of God restrains it; yet it is allowed to show enough in all, so that we will always remember our place in need of a Saviour.

OJ

 2012/1/29 18:03









 Re: Contending for the Faith; False Doctrines murder the Lambs.

"And Jesus, and all of the Apostles preceded with the exact same sentiment....Acts 20-30.

Do we confront the lie?...or do we tolerate it and let it spread?"

The idea that we curse the darkness, while throwing out the Shepherding aspects of Holy guidance and Protection is felonious. The Contending in itself, is always for the sake of the body, as bad doctrines arise, and evil usurpers, like the Pharisees, mark themselves as the true leaders.

Overseeing shepherds follow the body, observing where food and comfort, and guidance is needed, and also protection, and then serve. It is not their duty to journey throughout the world, rebuking every act and stronghold of Satan...and to what good? It is always for the sake of the body, the church, and is most necessary.

The war always follows the gospel, and the religious, and the controllers will always hate, and resist the Gospel. It is here that we contend.

TAKE HEED!-----"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears!"

AND....simply as a brother or a sister do we warn, and expose....

Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” And he said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground."

If we do not warn, exhort and expose....in some instances, we will not be "our brothers keeper". This means we really do not care for him or her, and if they die, it's all right with me.

Consider a mother and the scorpion. Does she allow her toddler to play with the bug in the sand-box? If I love my brother or sister, and see them stumbling or falling into a ditch, will I pull them out?

Of course, and this is the Christian command to all of us....and in the end, Deceivers murder, false doctrines can kill, and all of those who do not love the truth will be judged.



 2012/1/30 13:51









  Contending for the Faith; False Doctrines murder the Lambs.

Brothertom [ reposted because of spam attack...]

"And Jesus, and all of the Apostles preceded with the exact same sentiment....Acts 20-30.

Do we confront the lie?...or do we tolerate it and let it spread?"

The idea that we curse the darkness, while throwing out the Shepherding aspects of Holy guidance and Protection is felonious. The Contending in itself, is always for the sake of the body, as bad doctrines arise, and evil usurpers, like the Pharisees, mark themselves as the true leaders.

Overseeing shepherds follow the body, observing where food and comfort, and guidance is needed, and also protection, and then serve. It is not their duty to journey throughout the world, rebuking every act and stronghold of Satan...and to what good? It is always for the sake of the body, the church, and is most necessary.

The war always follows the gospel, and the religious, and the controllers will always hate, and resist the Gospel. It is here that we contend.

TAKE HEED!-----"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears!"

AND....simply as a brother or a sister do we warn, and expose....

Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” And he said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground."

If we do not warn, exhort and expose....in some instances, we will not be "our brothers keeper". This means we really do not care for him or her, and if they die, it's all right with me.

Consider a mother and the scorpion. Does she allow her toddler to play with the bug in the sand-box? If I love my brother or sister, and see them stumbling or falling into a ditch, will I pull them out?

Of course, and this is the Christian command to all of us....and in the end, Deceivers murder, false doctrines can kill, and all of those who do not love the truth will be judged.

 2012/1/30 15:11





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