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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Just a comment on this:

Quote:
We should be swift to stand against the dark flood lest our children, or brother or sister be swept away.


Of course, how you look at this statement will make all the difference in the world to our children.

If you are looking at it through fear-driven eyes, you will focus on the dark forces and then you WILL lose your children. You won’t win in your own strategies, and you’ll merely join the hordes of fear-driven casualties. And your children will try extra hard to NOT be like you.

If you are faith driven, then you will be focused on God – his sovereignty, his power, and his program for you. And you will be submitted to God And then you will be effective for him. And you will save your children.

Consider this thread title here: FALSE DOCTRINES AND MURDER OF THE LAMBS” in the context of Ezekiel 34 where we read God’s indictment to the shepherds of Israel:

“You do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak, or healed the sick, or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. “… so they were scattered … and they became food for all the wild animals.”


Indeed false movements are murdering our lambs today, but these little lambs would not have gone looking for food if they were well-fed in green pastures. By food I’m not talking about merely preaching propositional theologies, doctrines, rules and warnings at people, but much more. I am talking about the true outworking of love – as God has called his church to be. People who are love-deprived go searching in all the wrong places. And, even if you managed to shoot down one luring attraction, another will pop up, and another, and another. Starving sheep want food – something to bring meaning to life, to hide the emptiness, the fears, the pain!

Jesus said: “Feed my Sheep”. He did not say, go leave your sheep behind go out and bat down wolves. (not to discredit those who are TRULY equipped to expose false doctrines!)

Here’s another thought: Was it not God himself who raised up false prophets in Israel – when his people rejected him? If that is so today, then it really is best to confess our own sins, to turn to God ( repent) that he may restore our faith and empower us again to shine the light of his love.

….. and then the false prophets won’t be so successful in luring our lambs and murdering them.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/1/27 8:48Profile









 Re:

Miccah

Quote:
Let me ask you, if "they" are all wrong, what makes you think that you are right?



You misquote my posted, I never said I was right. So for your sake I'll clarify;

Every christian denomination has a doctrine different from the other. Surely, they can't all be right can they?

 2012/1/27 9:39
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
Surely, they can't all be right can they?



On the essentials? I do believe that there are many different denominations that have the essentials right. Are they all right? No.

On the debatables? Well that's debatable. :-)

In all seriousness, when it comes to debatables, I find it better to quote scripture on why it does or does not matter.

1 Corinthians 8:9-13, "But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble."

Romans 14:21, "It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak."


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/1/27 10:40Profile









 Re: Contending for the Faith; False Doctrines murder the Lambs.

John the Apostle confronts the usurper and bad doctrine, for the sake of the Church. 3John

No where in scripture does it say that God will sort out the wicked; expose them, and rebuke them. All of the Apostles, and every prophet of old had as his primary ministry this task...to root out and destroy, and to turn God's people back to Himself.


"Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.

We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellow helpers to the truth.

I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God."

.....so, do you think that John followed up on his word, and actually CONFRONTED the wolf Diotrophes? Of course he did.

Paul in one of many quotes;.[ Why was this written then?....and to the SHEPHERDS of Ephesus he spoke;

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. "

Was this to "allow God to sort it out", and not to confront these false teachers and Shepherds? It is ludicrous to think so...it is what it is.....a command to contend, confront, and root out the wolf, liar and usurper who would take over God's heritage as their own.

As Everestosama [ Grant ] so aptly pointed out, it is absurd to assume that one actually could read the Bible, and not see this reality. God has always had shepherds, watchmen [ and watch-women ], prophets and holy men that confronted the agents of the Devil to protect God's people, while turning their hearts back to Him.

Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Jehu, all the prophets, David and each and every Apostle recorded in Scripture did so.

Because of the pulpit that separates, and the clergy class it seems, there has been a disconnect with God's flock and their Shepherds. I think that this is being reversed by God, with the emergence of the House Church and the realization that we are ONE body....equal with equal honor...and that by love, we are our brothers keeper.

The plurality of unpaid elders emerging in local bodies....[ the Bible way..] serve from down under that the Holy Spirit be not quenched and Shepherd the flock with more security as a united front. The false prophet and teacher has a much harder time deceiving this united front, rather than one man.

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are in the midst of the Great Falling Away...and we need to beware, for ourselves and our friends and families...that they survive...but they, and we must CONTEND, for the battle is heated.



 2012/1/27 11:23
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Again, well put Brothertom.

 2012/1/27 11:56Profile
TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 521


 Re:

I grew up in the Disciples of Christ denomination (but am no longer a member) and they had a tenet that I found was quite good: Where the Bible speaks, We speak.
Where the Bible is silent, We are silent.

When I got into studying the Calvinism vs. Arminianism controversy I realized that it was quite a contentious thing that lasted for centuries! And it is still going on today. And why? Because Christians with plenty of time on their hands started to ask questions about minute details of regeneration, sanctification, etc. that are not spelled out in the Bible with all the details we wish it did. I am sure it was the 17th century that they asked the question, "How many angels can sit on the head of a pin?" So people started to espouse their speculations and conjectures as dogma and sects and denominations were formed by splintering. Anyway, I don't think it is necessary to know the EXACT MECHANICS of salvation, regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc. It is a miraculous and mysterious work of God by His Word and His Spirit and His Son who dwells in us and we in Him. We just need to look to him, trust Him, cooperate with and obey Him every moment.

 2012/1/27 12:28Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
John the Apostle confronts the usurper and bad doctrine, for the sake of the Church. 3John


Great example. Let’s see how John confronts the usurper and bad doctrine in 3 John. We read:

9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. 10 So when I come, I WILL CALL ATTENTION TO WHAT HE IS DOING, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.
11 Dear friend, DO NOT IMITATE WHAT IS EVIL BUT WHAT IS GOOD.”
-----------------------------
1. John intends to address the problem behaviours when he comes to the church. Is he going to have a private conference with Diotrephes, or is he is going to talk to the church about it, or both. The text does not say. The reader will draw inferences most likely based on his own understanding of “confrontation” . We do see that John is already describing the precise problem to the church in his letter.

2. John cautions the people to IMITATE WHAT IS GOOD. And then he gives an example: Demetrious, whom he notes, is well spoken of, and his testimony is proven to be true. So, obviously he is the one to imitate.

Comment: We would be distorting the text significantly if we merely extracted the part we read as confrontational, and overlook the solution John provides for the problem. John does not tell this congregation to go after wicked Diotrephes and deal with him, but to imitate Demetrious – in other words, nurture their relationship with him, not the other guy. That is wise advice, isn’t it? After all, you imitate those you fellowship with most. Furthermore, if the troublemaker loses followers, his game is over, right?

PS Where does the text speak about bad doctrine here?
What is the real issue?



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Diane

 2012/1/27 13:00Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Contending for the Faith; False Doctrines murder the Lambs.

"In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty, and in all things, charity."-Augustine

That famous quote has been a help to me in determining what needs to be condended for and what doesnt'

If you will bear with me I'll try to break it down a little.

In essentials unity(in doctrines that affect one's salvation, like the deity of Christ, His atoning death and physical resurrection, Him being the only way to heaven, the need for repentance and faith in HIm, salvation by grace, etc.). If we hold these types of essential beliefs in common there is no need for division.

In non-essentials liberty(in matters that don't affect one's salvation, like concerning spiritual gifts, Calvinism vs Arminianism, Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib, Eternal Security vs Losing Salvation, etc.). In these matters we should give each other liberty to disagree, without dividing over these issues.

In all things charity. In others words, agape love for God and others should be the underlying motive in all we say and do, whether we contend for the faith against heresies or show grace to the brethren in non-essentials.


"23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."- 2Tim.2:23-26


_________________
Oracio

 2012/1/27 13:25Profile









 Re:

"In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty, and in all things, charity."-Augustine-posted by Oracio.

Though there is merit here, this quote is so general that it almost sounds humanistic, and impractical, and in all areas it expels personalities, a huge factor in the heresy realm.

Yes, I agree that one group cannot legislate faith to others in order to unify, but at what point does the leadership of one group resist, and say NO! This is evil and we vehemently oppose you?

This is precisely what the Reformation Fathers decided, in a myriad of issues, that cost many of them their lives; by flame, sword and torture.

Of course, love SHOULD be our motive, but their are real deceivers with wicked motives that are void of life and love, and the Church had to resist, and stand....as it is today. By doing so, though with a heavy cost by contending for the faith; the gospel was established. They had overcame.

"Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

"Others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated .... (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground."

So, if you were given responsibility in the day of the Mormon founder Joseph Smith, How would you respond to him visiting your town to convert a few young ladies to the flock?

This is the issue today, and though maybe not as evidently wicked, the end often is the same; Perdition to the deceived.

 2012/1/27 16:48









 Re:


"We should be swift to stand against the dark flood lest our children, or brother or sister be swept away. "BT

Of course, how you look at this statement will make all the difference in the world to our children.

If you are looking at it through fear-driven eyes, you will focus on the dark forces and then you WILL lose your children. You won’t win in your own strategies, and you’ll merely join the hordes of fear-driven casualties. And your children will try extra hard to NOT be like you.

If you are faith driven, then you will be focused on God – his sovereignty, his power, and his program for you. And you will be submitted to God And then you will be effective for him. And you will save your children.

Consider this thread title here: FALSE DOCTRINES AND MURDER OF THE LAMBS” in the context of Ezekiel 34 where we read God’s indictment to the shepherds of Israel:

“You do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak, or healed the sick, or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. “… so they were scattered … and they became food for all the wild animals.”


"Indeed false movements are murdering our lambs today, but these little lambs would not have gone looking for food if they were well-fed in green pastures". .....Roadsign...

Amen; Thank-you Roadsign ...but have you ever considered FEAR as a good thing?, a necessary thing? THE FEAR OF THE LORD IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM!

The Fear of the Lord, and the Love of the Lord, walk Hand in Hand. In reality , you cannot have one without the other...It is the Nature of God's holiness and Power, reflected in the Light of Human Frailty.

I regret and pine that I could not instill the Fear of the Lord inside my children...but I appreciate your insights and discernment....with the sorrow of regret.....I go on.

 2012/1/28 1:09





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