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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : No need for conviction of sin AFTER salvation.

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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
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 Re:

Quote:
You need to pray for him and ask God to open his eyes to his own sin. Obviously this man has sin in his life he is trying to preach around.


This went through my mind too. Of course, the preacher may have no conscience awareness of any sin on his part, or even of any strategies to deflect conviction. Let’s admit, for a spiritual leader, conviction is infinitely more painful than for the rest of us. It’s not merely the experience of standing naked before your people. You stand to lose your honor, your reputation, maybe your job. That may happen when a heinous sin is exposed. But also, true confession may repel a congregation. People don’t always want honesty, brokenness, mercy, or grace to be operational in their church. They tend to resist it. So for a pastor especially, it's as the saying goes: damned if you do; damned if you don’t.

The problem with the minister’s theology may actually be a problem with the congregation. He’s simply telling them what they want to hear. So, trying to change the minster’s theology will get you nowhere.

I must admit, if I was the pastor, and heard words like “tear out most of Paul’s letters” I would probably smell a rat. I might suspect a frontal confrontation more than a pleasant dialogue. Pastors do get that a lot – and they really do have to protect themselves.

Wombat, it seems you wish to discern God’s call for you in this issue. It may be that the Pastor’s decline of your offer is for your protection. What you are seeing is likely only the tip of an iceberg, and when you go after that tip without knowing the bigger picture, you merely risk harm to yourself. You get hurt. And you end up being “the problem”.


Another point: It is worth acknowledging the morsel of truth in the pastor’s teachings: Yes, prior to conversion the Spirit convicts of our lostness, our separation from God (ie, sin) but afterwards the Spirit assures us of our new position in Christ – forgiven, free from guilt and condemnation.
It is also worth remembering that the devil also tries to convict God’s children – or rather, accuse them. There is a difference, and you’d have to think about that too.

If God is leading you to minister into the life of this pastor, ask God to open a way to build relationship. Get to know him and earn his trust. In time, if the Spirit leads you, you can get on to theological matters that press on your heart. But trying to correct someone’s doctrine without having any relationship of trust tends not to work.

Also making it your mission to combat a bad theology can wear you out. There are so many bad theologies out there, you end up beating down hordes of elephants with fly swatters.

Save your energy to grow in Christ yourself, and to build into the lives God puts in your path. Guard your peace and joy. The best way to combat a bad theology is to live a good one. What you see lacking in the other – live it in your own life.



Diane



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Diane

 2012/1/17 20:43Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
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 Re:

Quote:
by Matthew2323 on 2012/1/17 6:05:02

Art,

The issue 'Wombat' raised was not regarding the differences between the Old and New Covenants. He was addressing an error that a preacher made; the error that a born again Christian will not be convicted by the Holy Spirit when he sins.

There is simply no support for this in the New Testament as a number of passages calling on Believers to repent, flee from sin, put off sin, etc. will attest.



Yes, you are right, I did go off on a tangent. But I did disagree with the initial post. Thanks for pointing this out.

The fact is:

The Holy Spirit is very active in our transformation to please God. And the Holy Spirit will convict us of sin, and we will sin throughout our life. If someone sins against me, I am quick to forgive them, When I find out I sinned against someone, I try to make amends.

We will sin throughout our life (1 John 1:8-10). Our goal is not to be sinless, as nice as that may be, but to walk with God daily and to love and forgive one another.

The reality is that we will all sin throughout our life here on Earth. Therefore it is imperative that we show mercy to those who sin against us, being quick to forgive and bless those who sinned and are sinning against us. And make amends if possible to those we sinned against.

And when we do sin, we confess our sins to God, and He will forgive our sins, and He will also cleanse us of all unrighteousness. And as God forgives us, so we ought to forgive ourselves as well as make amends with whom we sinned against to the best of our ability.


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Arthur Biele

 2012/1/19 2:51Profile
Sree
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 Re:

Quote:

We will sin throughout our life (1 John 1:8-10). Our goal is not to be sinless, as nice as that may be, but to walk with God daily and to love and forgive one another.



I don't agree with it. I John 1:8 is not saying what you think it is. I have seen many of your posts till now, I just want to give you a Brotherly advice, you miss the spirit behind the scriptures. I pray that God will open your eyes to see the truth.

1 John 1-8:- If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2-1:- I write this to you so that you will not sin.

See Chapters are made my man, if you read both Chapters together you will understand that John is saying 1-8 so that we will not sin. Don't you find both of them contradicting? if you compare scripture with scripture and try to understand the spirit behind it you will see the Truth.

How can one say that we all sin in one verse and then say that you should not sin in another verse? So the Sin that John refers in 1-8, is unconscious sin. Sins that we are not aware of. In our day today life we hurt people even without knowing it. For example when I was a new believer I though speaking low of other person is Pride, that time I did not know that even thinking that I am superior to another person in some way is pride. But now I realize that. So did I sin when I was encouraging pride thoughts 1 year back? Yes I sinned. But my conscience was clear those times before God which did not mean that I was sinless. I had sin but my conscience did not realize it. So John here is saying that we should not be deceived that we became perfect and should keep seeking perfection. So John is saying 1-8 in reference to 1-7 where he says Blood of Jesus cleanses ALL our sins, both Conscious and unconscious. So he does not want us to be deceived by our conscience that we are sinless and stop relaying on Jesus for our salvation. That is why he follows up with his discussion in 1-8.

Our Goal is definitely to be sinless. One cannot walk with God with Sin in his life. Our Goal is to have clear conscience before God all the time. This is what it means to walk like Jesus, Jesus had a clear conscience before God all the time. Paul had it all the time. Why not you and I can have it? If you think you cannot have it then it means you lack faith.
Brother, I am not concerned about your incorrect understanding of scriptures, even I am not 100% here. But our attitude to Sin should always be to be perfect and Holy. Occasionally we may fall, but what is our attitude?

Compare pig and cat, both can fall into gutter but how do they react? Pigs enjoy and will stay there. Cats will immediately cleanse itself. What is different here? Attitude to cleanliness. Same should be our attitude to Sin as well.


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Sreeram

 2012/1/19 11:33Profile
wombat1
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Joined: 2010/12/1
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 Re:

Hi Art B,

I think you miss my point I am not talking about the grace that is need for us as we continue to walk in the way. I am looking to address a theology that says its ok to have sin in your life and to address it is legalism. "we don't want people feeling bad". It is a teaching that says any conviction by the Holy Spirit after salvation must be condemnation and should be avoided both from the pulpit and in terms of personal ministry.

If we continue to just feed people what they want and tell them that they are right with God if they are backsliden or never even born again then surely this is what David Wilkerson regards as "another gospel". He goes against this with every fiber of his being.

I believe the crossless message if emerging from the false church and is not just bad theology. It is to be warned against and not tolerated. Sin is ok and holiness is setting too high a standard for God people so lets settle for where they are at. There has got to be something wrong with this picture, surely.

What to do? Not exactly sure but just imagine that you knew that a message was fully antichrist. Do you sit back and say let us not touch the Lords anointed? Obviously not. Hopefully with grace and humility you would send out an alarm that same as if there was a wolf amongst the flock. A very different kettle of fish to having a sick shepherd. In this instance I think it is both.

I am just responding in general however your point of being under both grace and the new covenant law which still requires us to obey to his will spirit and word is how I see things as well.

Kindest regards Oskar


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Oskar Abley

 2012/1/20 8:14Profile
wombat1
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Joined: 2010/12/1
Posts: 65
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 Half truths don't cut the mustard

Hi RoadSign,
Thank you for your warning with regard to protection, I am sure that what I am confronting and more to the point sending an alarm is the spirit of antichrist.
There is of course a massive difference between condemnation and conviction.The Lord told me one day that condemnation sends you down a dead end street, whilst conviction challenges you to get back on the path of life.

The men and women that preach concerning "another gospel" are frequently addressing the issue of casting aside conviction and calling it legalism to be seeker friendly. The featured sermon today addresses this issue well.

I have heard this chap before he does not have a monopoly on greasy grace, yet. What to do? Address it. I may smell like a rat but I will tell the truth in love rather than let heresy send people to hell. Ray Comfort has some good things to say with regard to this subject.

If you are in ministry you will know that it is usually relevant for ministry to relate to ministry with regard to sin, however sometimes it is needed to expose sin. Darkness cannot dwell where there is light. One of the worst things a christian can do is put a fellow christian on a pedestal and turn a blind eye to matters that affect the flock.

So again, does the spirit convict of sin after salvation? Thank you for your encouragement to build relationship. I have been endeavouring to do so with little response. I am now talking to his oversight body and asking for their stand on sin after salvation not from the point of view of jumping on people but rather as Sree said we are to be holy and enter into the process of sanctification not just say it does not matter because God sees us as perfect because of the blood of the lamb regardless of how we live. Hope this is now clear.



Regards Oskar


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Oskar Abley

 2012/1/20 8:32Profile
ArtB
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 Re:

by Sree on 2012/1/19 8:33:03

Quote:
I don't agree with it. I John 1:8 is not saying what you think it is. I have seen many of your posts till now, I just want to give you a Brotherly advice, you miss the spirit behind the scriptures. I pray that God will open your eyes to see the truth.



I appreciate your concern Sree.

Sree wrote:

Quote:
John also wrote: "1 John 1-8:- If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2-1:- I write this to you so that you will not sin.

See Chapters are made my man, if you read both Chapters together you will understand that John is saying 1-8 so that we will not sin. Don't you find both of them contradicting? if you compare scripture with scripture and try to understand the spirit behind it you will see the Truth.



Yes, because the power of sin was in the Mosaic Laws.

Paul stated in Romans 7 that the Law was good, but it was death to us.

Ro 7:4-8:8
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which werearoused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 The Conflict of Two Natures


For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


Romans 8 Deliverance from Bondage

8:1


Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NASU


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Arthur Biele

 2012/1/20 12:00Profile
ArtB
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 Re:

God did not desire to give the Mosaic Law to the peoples of the Exodus, He wanted them to walk with Him by Faith, for His very presence was visibly present. But the peoples wanted a contract with God that guaranteed long life and prosperity in return for their obedience to what He desired of them.

Messiah as Prophet

I would like to share a rather different view than yours on the importance of the Mosaic Law.

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments et. al. to give to the people of the exodus, because the people were hard hearted. God wanted them to trust not their own understanding, but to walk with Him by faith as their father Abraham did, and not by sight. They did not know how to walk and live by faith; they wanted a visible clear contract so they would know exactly what God required of them in order for them to receive all of His blessings. Indeed, they received this Law most enthusiastically, declaring at least twice "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" and entering into this covenant with God based on their pledge of full adherence to the Mosaic Law and the sprinkling of the blood of sacrificed young bulls upon them.

Ex 19:7-9

So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words [The Mosaic Law] that the LORD had commanded him. All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD. NASU

Ex 24:3-8

3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, " All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!" 4 Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the LORD. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, " All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!" 8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." NASU

The Mosaic Law was weak and useless in that it perfected no one, but rather, proved to be a source of curses for those under the Mosaic Covenant. Rather than decrease sin, the Law increased sin among the people. Every person under the Mosaic Covenant proved himself to be unrighteous, except our lord Yeshua (Jesus).

To understand more completely God's plan for offering and providing salvation and blessings to All peoples on the earth, it is important to note that there is a limited value of the Mosaic Covenant between God and His chosen people Israel.


"Oh that they had such a Heart in them...”

Thus God knew from the beginning, at the very giving of the Mosaic Law, before they had a chance to brak this contract they made with God, that they were incapable of keeping the Mosaic Law.

Deut 5:28-30

28 "The LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me, 'I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They have done well in all that they have spoken. Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!"
NASU

Indeed, even after they first committed themselves to keeping all the commandments of God, they repeatedly showed what little faith they had in God. All the men over twenty years of age would perish over the next 40 years (except Caleb and Yeshua who had faith in God and wanted to enter the promised land at the beginng of the Exodus), not being allowed into the promised land due to their disobedience to God's commands and their lack of faith in God.

Once again, after 40 years in the wilderness, Moses addressed all the people of the Mosaic Covenant who were going into the Promised Land and reiterated the importance of keeping the Torah, the Law, and advised them that the reward for keeping this covenant would be great blessings, and he told them specifically what these blessings would be. Deut. 28: 1-14.

Moses also informed Israel of the punishment (the curses which would befall them) for breaking the covenant between them and God, and he told them specifically what these curses would be. Deut. 28:15-68.

Though the curses included banishment from the land which God gave them and great suffering and persecution in foreign lands, restoration was also promised to Israel at the conclusion of this time of punishment, per Deuteronomy 30.

Then Moses instructed the people about the Covenant that bears his name,
"See, I have set before you this day life and prosperity, death and adversity. ... I call heaven and earth as a witness against you today that I set before you life and death, blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants." Deut. 30: 15 & 19.

In hindsight, we can see that Israel had chosen death and adversity. But this was no surprise to God, for He knew even as Moses was reiterating the Covenant, that His people were incapable of keeping it and would be, in effect, choosing death and adversity.
"Then YHWH said to Moses, "Behold, the time for you to die is
near, call Yeshua, and present yourselves at the tent of meeting so
that I may commission him". ... And YHWH said to Moses, "Behold,
you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will
arise and play the harlot with strange gods of the land, into the
midst of which they are going, and will forsake me and break My
covenant that I have made with them". Deut. 31:14 & 16.

Even this 'Yshua' was a type of the 'Jesus' who would come to fill all of the Mosaic Law, thereby becoming the perfect Paschal Lamb. God's hint even back in Moses day. For Y'shua was not his real name. his name was Hoshea the son of Nun. God assigned the young man the name Joshua (Gr. Jesus) when He assigned the young man to Moses. This Y'shua was very special, he was the only other man allowed on the mountain when God gave Moses the commandments, Moses, was allowed to enter and go from the TENT that God dwelt, Y'shua lived in that tent. Moses, violating the Covenant of God with man that bears his name, was not allowed to lead the people into the promised, Y'shua was the one who led the peoples into the promised land.

So if the Mosaic Covenant is inadequate to provide Life to God's chosen, and much less so to the other peoples of the world, then what is God's plan to bless Israel and the peoples of the earth with life. (Remember, when G-d cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, He sent a cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life so that man may not eat of it and live forever).

The answer is given by Moses in Deut. 18:15-19

"YHWH your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. "This is according to all that you asked of YHWH your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of YHWH my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.' " YHWH said to me, 'They have spoken well. 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words that He shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NASU (Caps mine).

Our Messiah, Y'shua of the NT, references this. When accused by the Jews of condemning them, responds 'You search the scriptures because you think hat in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness to me, and you are unwilling to come to me that you may have life. ... Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father;the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe in me, for he wrote of me.But if you do not blieve his writings, how will you believe my words.

This prophecy, along with many others to follow, focuses on that male descendant, the seed of Eve, who will crush the skull of the serpent, who will be a great blessing to Israel and the peoples of the world, the redeemer, the Saviour, the Messiah.

Who is this Prophet? That has been the big search throughout history. It is clear that ever since Moses, Israel has sought and been awaiting this Prophet. In Yeshua's (Jesus’s) day they asked him, 'Are you the Prophet whose coming is foretold?'

Yet, even in Moses day, God let it be known what the name of that Prophet is via a shadow of what was to come.

Deut 1:37-38 YHWH speaking to Moses:
"Not even you shall enter there [the promised land]. Y'shua (i.e. Joshua) the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter there; encourage him, for he will cause Israel to inherit it.” NASU


The above underscores that salvation, redemption, life itself, has not been achieved through the observance and adherence to the Mosaic covenant, and seems it was not intended to be, but somehow is directly related to this expected Messiah.

Ro 5:20
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; NASU

Gal 3:19-29

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith, which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. NASU

We, who are Christians, are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant. We can still agree, as gentiles in Hammurabi's day did also, that things like shaming ones parents, stealing, the taking of an innocent life, coveting, etc., are causes of pain, hurt and suffering. But the keeping of them is not the basis of our redemption, salvation, and righteousness. As it is written in Hebrews, Yeshua is a High Priest, not of the order of Aaron, but of Melchizedek, Where there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a change of Law. Whereas the Mosaic law was a long list of commandments and statutes that we were required to keep, The laws of Christ keep us and accounts to us righteousness.

Heb 7:11-22

Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
NASU



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Arthur Biele

 2012/1/20 12:07Profile





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