SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Woman Teaching, Minor or Major doctrine?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 Next Page )
PosterThread
pilgrim777
Member



Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Hi roadsign,

Quote:
I assume you are referring to authoritarianism – the use of power and control over others. I suspect you see this as destructive, regardless of gender. Luther fought against ecclesial authoritarianism in his day - because it robs people of their freedom of conscience.



Yes, since the only authority any of us have (male or female) is the the authority of the Holy Spirit then yes, I am referring to authoritarianism.

Here is an example of that from Jesus' point of view (His view is the only one that counts).

Matt 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Matt 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

When men or women speak, they can most assuredly speak authoritatively as coming from the Lord Himself. And this "authority" is nothing like the authoritarianism that Jesus is speaking of in the preceding verses.

Quote:
Then again, authority in preaching is vital. Without it the listener sees no need to take the message seriously. If a preacher’s message does not reflect authority in ways that demonstrate credibility, the preacher is merely presenting a nice talk. If a female’s message cannot be accepted as any more than a nice talk, because she is female, she is better to remain silent. That’s better, I believe, than allowing the function of authority to be mocked, or her testimony to be discredited. It does no one any good.



When we are legalist about the "vessel" that the message is coming out of, then we will potentially miss the Lord speaking. It becomes a convenient way to turn away from the truth if we don't like it. But, if we love the truth, then the vessel will not matter to us. "Out of the mouth of babes, God has perfected praise". He is not talking about babies, or male babes is He?

Quote:
This, to me, is one of MANY REASONS why a debate over whether females can or can’t preach/teach is pointless. Besides, such a debate merely reflects a legalistic frame of thinking. It’s all about what someone can and can’t do. That is an immature level of morality. Don’t get caught up in it!!!! Frankly, a congregation’s view on the matter is not necessarily related to the people's level of spiritual maturity. (in my experience)



Wholeheartedly agree!

Quote:
One more comment on authority: Our society is desperately in need of authority – not merely of those with designated positions of authority, but those who demonstrate genuine authority in their lives. Wouldn’t you rather receive counsel from someone who really does know his stuff than someone who has the position but is an airhead on the subject?



Our society is desperately in need of people who know Christ (the authority) which often has nothing to do with "positions". If I was an alcoholic, or drug addict or had any other kind of problem, I would much rather be counseled by someone who knows God than by someone who knows how to turn the pages of their "Counseling Manual" to the Alcoholic section and read me a bunch of scriptures. I probably don't need all the scriptures that tell me about strong drink and drunkards. I have come to the counselor because I recognize my problem is alcohol. I already know about that. I need someone who knows God's heart and can help "lay the axe to the root", because I don't know what the root is. A Christian who knows God will also be operating in the spirit of Isaiah 61:3 and be able to help this man or woman.

Quote:
Likewise, wouldn’t you rather see all Christian women become mature in Christ, showing evidence of spiritual authority through their lives - in spirit and truth and Christian submission? That, I believe is a far more important priority than the issue of roles in the church. Imagine how that would turn our churches upside down for Jesus – never mind our families!!!



I would like to see male and female become mature in Christ (walking in love, walking after the spirit). And the Lord can begin with me.

Great chatting with you,
Pilgrim

 2012/1/10 13:02Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
Besides, such a debate merely reflects a legalistic frame of thinking. It’s all about what someone can and can’t do. That is an immature level of morality.



“When there’s something in the Bible that churches don’t like, they call it legalism.” - Ravenhill


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/1/10 13:32Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
When we are legalist about the "vessel" that the message is coming out of, then we will potentially miss the Lord speaking.



Pilgrim, Along the same vanity …. in my church there is raging dispute over whether or not lay people should be allowed to baptize and serve communion. I wonder: Why does attention far more readily drift to what is below the neck than above the neck! If it’s not the clerical collar it’s the body parts. Can Satan not uses these pre-occupations to pull our attention away from what is happening in our heads. Surely, he aims to keep us in a state of slumbering stupidity, so he can sabotage the church’s effectiveness in God’s redemptive work in the world.

Or is this symptomatic of divine judgment: “So man will be brought low and mankind humbled…” Is. 5:15


Oh, yes, of course we wish to see male and female together mature in Christ. It happens together in unity. (Eph.)


Quote:
“When there’s something in the Bible that churches don’t like, they call it legalism.” - Ravenhill


There is some truth here. Still this is a handy card that a legalist would play. It may explain antinominanism, but still, it seems more a generalized attack than a way of addressing the real issue.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2012/1/10 13:46Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Miccah

Quote:
Miccah wrote 2012/1/7 14:27:
As you have stated, many women have the ability to teach, preach and such, but that it is not in the order of how the Lord established it from the beginning.


Where did I state this? Everyone has the ability to teach or preach, that doesn’t mean they are called. I was talking about women being called by God to preach ,which I know we disagree adamantly on!


Quote:
Miccah wrote 2012/1/10 10:32:
“When there’s something in the Bible that churches don’t like, they call it legalism.” – Ravenhill


That is a mighty broad brush stroke to use there, Miccah! And I have to add this... just because Ravenhill said it doesn’t make it Bible! (huge grin b/c we probably disagree AGAIN!)

Love ya, Brother!
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2012/1/10 13:56Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Hey Lisa,

I should have added a period after "preach and such". The next part of the sentence (but that it is not in the order of how the Lord established it from the beginning) is something that I feel is Biblical, but was NOT stated by you. Sorry for not explaining it better.


True. Ravenhill saying something doesn't make it Biblical. Regardless, it is still true. I would assume that you have run into churches like this as well. :-)

Be blessed Lisa.


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/1/10 14:03Profile









 Re:

Who is living the life that we should even deal with this issue?

We are always saying, "the church is not where it ought to be", "the church is in sin", "the church this the church that" it goes on and on and on.

Shouldn't we get where we ought to be, get the sin out and all the other "little" things and then we can deal with this woman teaching issue? To me it's like what Jesus said about the Pharisees,

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

We are doing the same thing. Notice how I said "we", I include myself in that equation because whenever we say something against the Church, remember we are speaking about ourselves because we are that church we are talking against.

Were doing and saying a lot of things that will only burn up in the end, and yet we are leaving out the weightier qualities.

At this point in time the least of our worries are talking about women preachers because they are not going to be going away anytime soon. Whether it's right or wrong, again, who is going to implement the rules?

Where are the Paul's the Peter's that correct the church and even speak judgment? They are not here.

The foundation must be laid in our generation once again. Yes, the foundation was laid 2000 years ago, but I am talking about a fresh renewal of that foundation where God would set "some" in the Church first Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry.

If we don't have that foundation in our day, what we are doing with this issue is no different than playing Tiddly Winks.

 2012/1/10 18:10
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

I would like to reflect on this statement by Miccah

Quote:
I think that when men stand up and start being Godly men, we will see a great reduction in the amount of women teaching over men …



Yes, men who truly submit the Lord will also become more submissive in their relationships. They will be more able to edify women in godly love. And then women will be less inclined to fill their inadequacies by competing for equality, recognition, and acceptance through ecclesial status and positions.

Sadly, there are many women in today’s church who are trapped in defeat and inferiority through degradation experienced in highly patriarchal churches. It is pointless debating over gender roles while ignoring those wounded through power, domination, and control in our churches –by far done by men. As is already said – major first on the majors – and that is a major! It is worth noting that this is also why some denominations are adamant about allowing female ordination – and even removing all male gender terminologies for God in the hymns. These churches don’t want to further alienate females from God who have been wounded by men and see God as just another of these kind of men. Let’s not mock the heart of this concern – even as we disagree with the solution. (which, again is highly legalistic - to me)

If we can look past the legal fine print, the letter of the gender laws (conservative or liberal), we will see that gender is not the issue, but instead, it is something far more fundamental to the sin nature. And only then can we also move towards God’s remedy – and build on his solid foundation.
Quote:
If we don't have that foundation in our day, what we are doing with this issue is no different than playing Tiddly Winks.



That’s like trying to build a doctrine on sandy soil.


One more point:
Why is it that historically, where there has been a move of God among his people, there has also been a rise in females preaching and leading. You see in China too. I would agree with Miccah in that you’d think it should be the opposite. Yet for some reason God seems to empower women during awakenings, but when the church gets ecclesiastically rigid, the shift returns to the men. (And even today where women are now ordained, there is still tightly controlled professionalism – and the clergy are an elite class holding the power.)
Again – it is symptomatic of a deeper sin issue –not just the desire for power, but also the propensity of the "laity" to trust in the ecclesial authorities to do the spiritual work for them.

I want to thank you posters for your words of encouragement. I see men here who are truly a balm of hope. May God use you to bring reconciliation between genders.

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2012/1/10 20:14Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, men who truly submit the Lord will also become more submissive in their relationships



No. Men are to love and honor their wives, wives are to submit to their husbands. Please do not mismatch the two.

This is where the problem lies. It is when a wife believes that a man needs to submit to her, that problems arise, not the other way around. Are there boneheaded husbands? Yes. And they are out of order. But this topic is about our better half :-)

When a marriage is in Godly order, the man will love his and honor his wife, even over his own life, and a wife will submit to the leadership of her husband. When this happens, an awesome thing happens... Both husband and wife are in a complete giving place, where each places the other before themselves. When this is out of order is when you start to see problems in the marriage. It pretty much boils down to a pride issue.

Today's church cares so much about equality and political correctness. Well let me tell you, the Lord is not interested in 20th-21st century liberalism. He is concerned about His rule and how we obey His leadership. This includes the order of the household.


Men... Stand up and become the men and the leaders that the Lord has made you to be.


*edit* A Godly ordered home is honoring to the Lord and brings the home into full submission to the Lord's will. Blessings!


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/1/10 23:12Profile









 Re:

quote: "– and even removing all male gender terminologies for God in the hymns. These churches don’t want to further alienate females from God who have been wounded by men and see God as just another of these kind of men. Let’s not mock the heart of this concern – even as we disagree with the solution. (which, again is highly legalistic - to me)"



I've only taken out a small section, Diane, of much that you've written on this topic that I do not agree with, according to His Word.

As some of us had commented on the thread about "legalism" - that word is definitely defined differently by each person's own will and 9 times out of 10, New Testament Scripture is being thrown out somewhere in the process, by each person.

Since that one thread - I've seen more New Testament Scripture cast away in the last 5 days than I've seen over yrs of being here.

It's becoming "OpinionIndex" as far as the forum goes.

So much of our own opinions, rather than the guarding of His Word.

Women now want to throw Paul out of the Church because he said that they shouldn't teach nor usurp authority over men.
We want to throw out anything that we don't want to hear of "obedience" and now call it legalism. And obedience has been painted as unnecessary "works". What a month so far.


Women represent The Church and men represent Christ - The Husband of The Bride - and that's how true "submission" is taught in The Word.

How can we teach about "submission" and then desire to usurp authority over men? Even to taking His gender out of hymnals and saying if we disagree with that, we're legalistic.

Anyone seen as "legalistic" on that other thread were called dogs - as in not Saints, but the problem remains - that the term has gone beyond what is written when it became defined differently by each person and began to throw out even Jesus' Own Words.

This has been a very discouraging month here and besides Matt 24:10 and a large host of other verses coming into mind - these verses are as well right now ...

2Ti 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine, for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


'Submission' has always been taught in The Word as men over women - symbolic of Christ over His Church.

We are surely seeing a falling away from Biblical Truth in these days and anyone posting verses that we don't like, we now have a man-made word to call it - "legalism".

Please rethink this submission issue, Diane. I say that from my heart and not from anger at you personally ... but more and more New Testament Scripture is being canceled-out of late than any of us should allow for ourselves or for others that we care about. We've Got to become people of The Book again or else the Scriptures that we're fulfilling are those like the one quoted above and that's a fearful thing to be a part of or to watch.




 2012/1/11 0:21









 Re:


Regarding some of the things mentioned since "legalism" has been brought up - I've read a few posts by those who do not consider themselves to be legalists and say that they are "led of The Spirit" instead.
The question I have is, how can 'The Spirit lead' anyone to believe something that The Word of GOD hasn't said or that contradicts what it says, regarding doctrine, if The Word of GOD is the One we know as 'Jesus'?
I'm considering these two verses with these questions ...


John 16:13,14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall 'hear', that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify Me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [KJV]


John 16:13,14 But when that One comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He 'hears', He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you.
That One will glorify Me, for He will receive from Mine and will announce to you. [LITV]



Would Jesus say one thing to Paul, John or James and have them write those things as Scripture and then tell the Holy Spirit to tell us something that contradicts it, since the New Testament was completed?

Does The Word of GOD [made flesh] change The Word of GOD [written] and change His Own doctrines by doing so?

Is that something that seems to some to be what GOD would do?

Is that "being led by The Spirit of Truth", as He's called?


That question has been heavy on me and I ask for reasons of the heart. Would He tell us to not go beyond what is written and then tell us by His Spirit to ignore His original Words?





 2012/1/11 3:16





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy