I assume you are referring to authoritarianism the use of power and control over others. I suspect you see this as destructive, regardless of gender. Luther fought against ecclesial authoritarianism in his day - because it robs people of their freedom of conscience.
Then again, authority in preaching is vital. Without it the listener sees no need to take the message seriously. If a preachers message does not reflect authority in ways that demonstrate credibility, the preacher is merely presenting a nice talk. If a females message cannot be accepted as any more than a nice talk, because she is female, she is better to remain silent. Thats better, I believe, than allowing the function of authority to be mocked, or her testimony to be discredited. It does no one any good.
This, to me, is one of MANY REASONS why a debate over whether females can or cant preach/teach is pointless. Besides, such a debate merely reflects a legalistic frame of thinking. Its all about what someone can and cant do. That is an immature level of morality. Dont get caught up in it!!!! Frankly, a congregations view on the matter is not necessarily related to the people's level of spiritual maturity. (in my experience)
One more comment on authority: Our society is desperately in need of authority not merely of those with designated positions of authority, but those who demonstrate genuine authority in their lives. Wouldnt you rather receive counsel from someone who really does know his stuff than someone who has the position but is an airhead on the subject?
Likewise, wouldnt you rather see all Christian women become mature in Christ, showing evidence of spiritual authority through their lives - in spirit and truth and Christian submission? That, I believe is a far more important priority than the issue of roles in the church. Imagine how that would turn our churches upside down for Jesus never mind our families!!!
Besides, such a debate merely reflects a legalistic frame of thinking. Its all about what someone can and cant do. That is an immature level of morality.
When we are legalist about the "vessel" that the message is coming out of, then we will potentially miss the Lord speaking.
When theres something in the Bible that churches dont like, they call it legalism. - Ravenhill
Miccah wrote 2012/1/7 14:27:As you have stated, many women have the ability to teach, preach and such, but that it is not in the order of how the Lord established it from the beginning.
Miccah wrote 2012/1/10 10:32:When theres something in the Bible that churches dont like, they call it legalism. Ravenhill
Hey Lisa,I should have added a period after "preach and such". The next part of the sentence (but that it is not in the order of how the Lord established it from the beginning) is something that I feel is Biblical, but was NOT stated by you. Sorry for not explaining it better.True. Ravenhill saying something doesn't make it Biblical. Regardless, it is still true. I would assume that you have run into churches like this as well. :-)Be blessed Lisa.
Who is living the life that we should even deal with this issue?We are always saying, "the church is not where it ought to be", "the church is in sin", "the church this the church that" it goes on and on and on.Shouldn't we get where we ought to be, get the sin out and all the other "little" things and then we can deal with this woman teaching issue? To me it's like what Jesus said about the Pharisees, Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.We are doing the same thing. Notice how I said "we", I include myself in that equation because whenever we say something against the Church, remember we are speaking about ourselves because we are that church we are talking against.Were doing and saying a lot of things that will only burn up in the end, and yet we are leaving out the weightier qualities.At this point in time the least of our worries are talking about women preachers because they are not going to be going away anytime soon. Whether it's right or wrong, again, who is going to implement the rules?Where are the Paul's the Peter's that correct the church and even speak judgment? They are not here.The foundation must be laid in our generation once again. Yes, the foundation was laid 2000 years ago, but I am talking about a fresh renewal of that foundation where God would set "some" in the Church first Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry.If we don't have that foundation in our day, what we are doing with this issue is no different than playing Tiddly Winks.
I would like to reflect on this statement by Miccah
I think that when men stand up and start being Godly men, we will see a great reduction in the amount of women teaching over men
If we don't have that foundation in our day, what we are doing with this issue is no different than playing Tiddly Winks.
Yes, men who truly submit the Lord will also become more submissive in their relationships
quote: " and even removing all male gender terminologies for God in the hymns. These churches dont want to further alienate females from God who have been wounded by men and see God as just another of these kind of men. Lets not mock the heart of this concern even as we disagree with the solution. (which, again is highly legalistic - to me)"I've only taken out a small section, Diane, of much that you've written on this topic that I do not agree with, according to His Word.As some of us had commented on the thread about "legalism" - that word is definitely defined differently by each person's own will and 9 times out of 10, New Testament Scripture is being thrown out somewhere in the process, by each person.Since that one thread - I've seen more New Testament Scripture cast away in the last 5 days than I've seen over yrs of being here.It's becoming "OpinionIndex" as far as the forum goes.So much of our own opinions, rather than the guarding of His Word.Women now want to throw Paul out of the Church because he said that they shouldn't teach nor usurp authority over men.We want to throw out anything that we don't want to hear of "obedience" and now call it legalism. And obedience has been painted as unnecessary "works". What a month so far.Women represent The Church and men represent Christ - The Husband of The Bride - and that's how true "submission" is taught in The Word.How can we teach about "submission" and then desire to usurp authority over men? Even to taking His gender out of hymnals and saying if we disagree with that, we're legalistic.Anyone seen as "legalistic" on that other thread were called dogs - as in not Saints, but the problem remains - that the term has gone beyond what is written when it became defined differently by each person and began to throw out even Jesus' Own Words.This has been a very discouraging month here and besides Matt 24:10 and a large host of other verses coming into mind - these verses are as well right now ...2Ti 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine, for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 'Submission' has always been taught in The Word as men over women - symbolic of Christ over His Church.We are surely seeing a falling away from Biblical Truth in these days and anyone posting verses that we don't like, we now have a man-made word to call it - "legalism".Please rethink this submission issue, Diane. I say that from my heart and not from anger at you personally ... but more and more New Testament Scripture is being canceled-out of late than any of us should allow for ourselves or for others that we care about. We've Got to become people of The Book again or else the Scriptures that we're fulfilling are those like the one quoted above and that's a fearful thing to be a part of or to watch.
Regarding some of the things mentioned since "legalism" has been brought up - I've read a few posts by those who do not consider themselves to be legalists and say that they are "led of The Spirit" instead. The question I have is, how can 'The Spirit lead' anyone to believe something that The Word of GOD hasn't said or that contradicts what it says, regarding doctrine, if The Word of GOD is the One we know as 'Jesus'? I'm considering these two verses with these questions ...John 16:13,14 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall 'hear', that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [KJV]John 16:13,14 But when that One comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He 'hears', He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you. That One will glorify Me, for He will receive from Mine and will announce to you. [LITV]Would Jesus say one thing to Paul, John or James and have them write those things as Scripture and then tell the Holy Spirit to tell us something that contradicts it, since the New Testament was completed? Does The Word of GOD [made flesh] change The Word of GOD [written] and change His Own doctrines by doing so?Is that something that seems to some to be what GOD would do?Is that "being led by The Spirit of Truth", as He's called?That question has been heavy on me and I ask for reasons of the heart. Would He tell us to not go beyond what is written and then tell us by His Spirit to ignore His original Words?