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EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Judgement in the House of God - When to draw the line?

Hey guys,

So I just watched Francis Chan's sermon clip on Judgement in the house of God

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBEjMWJAhHI&feature=player_embedded#!

He has really matured a lot in these past couple of years and it is really encouraging!

One question and problem I have though:
What do we do with Christians who are perpetually addicted to pornography and can't break free?

They know its wrong and confess it but I just dont know what to do its been a year and its not like they are hiding it and they are sorry and they confess it again and again.

I dont feel like they need to be rebuked ..
any answers?


 2011/12/16 22:46Profile
learjet
Member



Joined: 2010/4/19
Posts: 447


 Re: Judgement in the House of God - When to draw the line?

Quote:
I dont feel like they need to be rebuked... any answers?



Didn't Jesus teach in the Sermon on the Mount that adultery in the heart is just as grievous as committing the act physically (MT 5:27-30)?

Clearly these people don't believe that what they are doing is sin, it's really that simple, it might be a 'problem', 'weakness' or whatever to them but it's clearly not sin to them but Jesus didn't come to help with 'weaknesses' He came to cleanse (totally remove) our sins. Confession is not repentance, confession without repentance are useless words, folks who walk in sin are unbelievers.

What to do about the situation in the church is not ambiguous it's crystal clear, Jesus told us what to do in Matthew 18:

Quote:
“If another believer sins *AGAINST YOU, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. 16 But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses. 17 If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.
18 “I tell you the truth, whatever you forbid[f] on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit[g] on earth will be permitted in heaven.

19 “I also tell you this: If two of you agree here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. 20 For where two or three gather together as my followers,[h] I am there among them.”

*most manuscripts do not have 'against you'. Meaning it should read 'if your brother sins'

-Matthew 18:15-20



Paul carried this verse out in practice in 1 Corinthians 5:

Quote:
I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.[a] 2 You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5:1-2



Sexual immorality is sexual immorality and should not be tolerated in the body, period. It should be dealt with by unified elders in the church.

With that said please note the outcome of this whole story in 2 Corinthians 2:

Quote:
I am not overstating it when I say that the man who caused all the trouble hurt all of you more than he hurt me. 6 Most of you opposed him, and that was punishment enough. 7 Now, however, it is time to forgive and comfort him. Otherwise he may be overcome by discouragement. 8 So I urge you now to reaffirm your love for him.

9 I wrote to you as I did to test you and see if you would fully comply with my instructions. 10 When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, 11 so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes.

-2 Corinthians 2:5-11



In the end the man was confronted, excommunicated and later restored, isn't that wonderful? Restoration was the motivation from the beginning!

Hope this helps you out! :-)

 2011/12/17 1:04Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3393
East TN (for now)

 Re: Judgement in the House of God - When to draw the line?

Quote:
EvangelTam wrote:
They know its wrong and confess it but I just dont know what to do its been a year and its not like they are hiding it and they are sorry and they confess it again and again.


Jesus came to SET the captives free, if it was just a decision that men (and women) could make when they wake up, “I’m not watching anymore porn, ever;” then they wouldn’t need Jesus, now would they? Men who are addicted to porn need to be set free by those who believe the power of the Holy Spirit can set these men free.

I, personally, believe this is a telling sign among those who name the name of Christ – that no one is being set free. The church today is riddled with addictions and no one believes these people have a supernatural problem because if you’re a Christian you can’t have a demonic problem but yet problems abound among God’s people. Go figure.

Just a woman’s humble two cents worth.
God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/12/17 6:22Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1711


 Re: Judgement in the House of God - When to draw the line?

Quote:

One question and problem I have though:
What do we do with Christians who are perpetually addicted to pornography and can't break free?

They know its wrong and confess it but I just dont know what to do its been a year and its not like they are hiding it and they are sorry and they confess it again and again.

I dont feel like they need to be rebuked ..
any answers?



I don't Believe these people have to be rebuked. We need to have compassion for them. They are living in sin. We need to pray for them. Also talk to them about true repentance. Repentance is to turn away from something and make a 180 degree change. The prodigal son turned away from Pig's food, never to return again and that is why his Father came running towards him. It is problem with Churches, they never preach repentance these days because to preach repentance they need to talk about Sin and when they do so people might get offended and stop coming to Church.

We need to pray that these people will realize that they are weak and seek for God's power, which is the power of Holy Spirit to work in them. Unless they understand their weakness they will never overcome it, because God's power perfects us only in our weakness. If one thinks he is strong then where is the need for God's power in him.


_________________
Sreeram

 2011/12/17 7:56Profile
EvangelTam
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 149


 Re:

Thanks for you replies! It is just really frustrating but I am learning patience. Please pray for discernment on this matter. I do believe all that is said right thank you so much. The way God works is very mysterious.

In Christ
Evangel

 2011/12/18 0:02Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 705
San Diego

 Re: Judgement in the House of God - When to draw the line?

I have been thinking about this since I first noticed the post, and have wanted to give a careful and deliberate response. Pornography has exploded into the American culture- the whole world culture really, with the Internet. It used to be that an effort needed to be made to get porn, you had to buy magazines, or to get the hardcore stuff you had to deal with unsavory people. Not any more. Two or three clicks in the sweet privacy of you and your computer and you are there. And much of it is free, in a money sense.

As a result, millions of men who are born again and attend church are held in the grip of pornography’s delicious seduction. For many, only they and God have knowledge of their habit. The corresponding guilt sends their minds into overactive rationalizing, and cuts off the true intimacy that the Father longs for. Pornography is a dark alley with no good end, no fulfillment, and no peace. In many ways it is like any other addiction, weaving chains of bondage that are anchored in Hell.

I wish I had a good and easy answer for this one. As has been mentioned men in the grip of this sin will often repent, be so remorseful, will vow to quit, and shock themselves with how quickly they are back into it. I have as much respect for this one as I have for cocaine, heroine, gambling, and the occult. These are the quick ones, capturing their victims with unanticipated speed. And they have dark spiritual accelerants.

It is a common counseling technique to get the person to speak to their issue with a plan of attack once they recognize the problem. One guy I know who admits the problem had an agreement with his wife to only use the computer when she is there to keep an eye on him. He was working other things as well, attempting to control it from the outside. But once he quit coming to our men’s fellowship, I don’t know what happened. I expect it didn’t go well. The problem is not solved by controlling external circumstances.

I am going to suggest this. The problem is internal, and it can be defeated the same way a man gets saved by Jesus Christ. From Romans 10:9-10 where we combine a believing of the heart, and the speaking forth of the mouth, the same is true in confronting habitual sin practices.

“God I want to be your man, to be filled with your goodness, your righteousness, taking pleasure in the things that are your pleasure! I repent and rebuke this wickedness that has stolen my heart, and I am returning to you by the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ!”

Well said. But there’s more.

“In Jesus’ name I rebuke you demon, demon of pornography that hates me, that hates God, hates the women also stolen from the protection of a loving God. Get out of my head, out of my heart, out of my covenant with my God. The blood of Jesus that has saved my soul is against you, and every time you come to me with this temptation, you are going to hear from my mouth the blood of Jesus standing against you!”

We forget (someone wants us to forget) just how powerful spoken words like this can be in repelling demonic temptation. Let me close with a little story.

When I came home from the Viet Nam war where I’d been an infantry medic, I became a Registered Nurse and worked in a psych ward in a hospital. Technically forbidden to present my faith to the patients, I worked around that as best as I could. One day one of my patients was a woman named Helen. In and out of the hospital many times, she had had many shock treatments and courses of drugs to no real avail. She heard voices constantly. What was unique about her circumstance was that she was well educated and had been a Roman Catholic nun. With her mental troubles she had been released from her vocation.

It was late in the day near the end of my shift, and I was with her in her room and I asked her what she thought the voices were.

“Is it the devil?” she asked.

“I don’t think so,” I responded. “I think it’s just his helpers, demons.” Then I said to her, “Do you know Jesus?”

A warm smile came to her face and she said, “I love Jesus.”


“Helen,” I said to her, “If you love Jesus, you don’t have to listen to those voices.”

I reached behind myself and pushed the door closed. Going into non-medical territory here. I put my hand on her forehead and rebuked the demons in the name of Jesus. “This woman belongs to Jesus, get away from her!”

“So what happened?” I asked.

“Ooh, they were real close- but now they’re further away!”

She was so surprised and happy. I told her that I didn’t have any more power than she had as a child of God, that in the name of Jesus she could drive them away herself.

“Really?” She was incredulous. No one had ever told her that.

The following day when I came into work she was beside herself with joy. “It works, it works!” she proclaimed. Shortly after that she was discharged, and for the next couple years I worked there she never came back. She had learned to use her mouth to affirm the saving power of Jesus.

I hope this helps- as for me I declare with my mouth that I hate the desolating power of pornography!







_________________
Tom Cameron

 2011/12/18 0:04Profile









 Re:

Porn is temptation. just like all other addictions, your weakest point is where you'll suffer the most, be it porn, alcohol or drug addiction.

We are constantly being tested and tried to prove ourselves worthy. If you view addiction as a trial (temptation) you wouldn't feel so hopeless, you can then start working towards overcoming, because you've got your eye on that prize.

We must overcome all our worldly desires. No one said it would be easy but we don't have a choice but to overcome, through total obedience and %100 submission.

 2011/12/20 1:20
SolaVeritas
Member



Joined: 2010/6/29
Posts: 156
SK Canada

 Re: Judgement in the House of God - When to draw the line?

Why do Christians not heed Jesus' advice in Matthew 5? If something (like our hand or eyes) causes us to sin, we need to radically cut off that possiblity. He didn't say, try not to let those naughty eyes lead you into more sin, he said, gouge them out! Gone for good. What does that mean when it comes to temtations like pornography? Get rid of the computer. Go to the internet cafe to check your emails or stay away for good. Addicted to your phone and constantly distracted by all the texting? Get rid of it. Can't resist watching all those soap operas all day long and no time for the Bible? No more TV in your house. Yes, you can and life will go on. People need to be told that.
I do believe though that a fully surrendered person can reisist any temtation with Jesus' help, but some of the above steps might be needed first.

 2011/12/20 21:17Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Judgement in the House of God - When to draw the line?

I have found that focusing on accountability groups, trying to exert more willpower, thinking about how bad pornography is, and the like can never in and of themselves lead to long lasting victory. I will tell you what I have learned.

First, there does need to be a recognition that it is sin. But most men who are addicted are well aware of this fact already and feel great shame and condemnation continually. The don't need to be told how sinful they are as the enemy beats them over the head with that fact every day.

Second, there does need to be genuine repentance. There needs to be an acknowledgement of this as sin and a turning from it and a turning to the Lord.

Third, Yes, there does need to be a walk between men where they are submitted one to another. Call it accountability, call it submission, call it genuine fellowship, call it whatever you will but it is an important element.

But the element that I think is missing sometimes is more of a total life change that should be indicative of a believer that I think is missing so many times. A man needs to fall so in love with His Lord and Savior and so occupy his time and his thoughts with the things of God that pornography or other temptations can no longer compare to the glory that the man is experiencing in knowing and pursuing God. We live such carnal lives. By carnal I simply mean we are so occupied with the physical and fleshly that we are spiritually weak and emaciated. We are easy prey for the enemy. But genuine relationship with a living God is a thing that should totally consume our lives. The fact that men fall so easily to pornography is not so much a porn problem as it is a barometer that is telling them their relationship with God is not where it ought to be. Victory comes in a life that is totally consumed with God and that victory is really effortless in that we no longer have to strive to be pure but we walk in purity as we walk daily and closely with and Purity Himself.


_________________
Travis

 2011/12/20 21:31Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 705
San Diego

 Re:

Well said, Travis!

Gouging out the eyes, smashing the computer, sending the TV to the trash- leaves you with just your memories of the images which you can revisit over and over again in your mind. It's fighting an inside problem from the outside.

Unfortunately, few fall in love with God overnight, it is the pursuit of His interests over time that establishes both the relationship and the righteousness that makes a worthy stand against the sweet purring sound of Satan's invitations.

God was very direct with Cain. "Listen up, Dude- sin is crouching at the door and really wants you bad! But you must master it!"

Interesting how despite centuries of theological thought that man has an inborn sinful nature, God never allows anyone to use that as an excuse for sin.

Also funny how God waits long and late to hear a repentant heart, and we just keep boring Him with information He already knows.





_________________
Tom Cameron

 2011/12/21 0:19Profile





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